H4 LED + other LED lighting

[footgoose]

[po18guy]

Since cooling is an issue with LEDs, I did a little experiment with an "Infitary" fan-cooled H4 bulb mounted in a Kawi EX500 headlight. Forget which beams I used, but after 1/2 hour and then 1+ hours, the IR thermometer read 80ºF - with no physical airflow except the fan. I think that most of the car-type LED cooling features may be intended for those units which reside close to automotive transverse engine exhausts and heated radiator air. Being fairing mounted, the EX headlight essentially hangs in the air - lots of cooling. Those in a shell or bucket might warm up more, but I just did not see the heat issue on a bike.

I would have used the undoubtedly HQ Japanese PIAA unit on the Goose, but the driver will not fit inside the bucket and I did not feel like boring holes into it.  

[docc]

First attempt at some static aiming of the "VintageCars" LED. I live on a hillside where my entire existence is slipping toward the Marianas Trench , and the only level thing is my head . So, this set-up is far from perfect, but at ten feet the Lo-beam shows a nice cut-off biased away from right-side driving traffic:

Hi-beam looks more "focused" than the last LED unit, but won't know more until I ride at night (I'd rather not), or continually get flashed by oncoming vehicles.

[po18guy]

So far, so good. Really nice cutoff on low beam. Perhaps a little left-right adj on the high and that bright spot will light up a very decent distance. 

[luhbo]

On 10/16/2019 at 1:29 AM, po18guy said:

Since cooling is an issue with LEDs, I did a little experiment with an "Infitary" fan-cooled H4 bulb mounted in a Kawi EX500 headlight. Forget which beams I used, but after 1/2 hour and then 1+ hours, the IR thermometer read 80ºF - with no physical airflow except the fan....  

While I follow your guys' experiments with great interest I follow them also with equally great scepticism. Cooling is a big issue because the issue starts directly below the light emitting stuff itself. A fan one inch behind the HOT spots cannot help if this primary bonding is somewhat suboptimal.

So, being keen myself on finding a good LED replacement for my H4 bulbs I'm afraid that this won't happen. Mainly because of two reasons: it's more than tricky to pack several relatively big and hot LEDs on a spot small enough to match the reflector's geometry, second an H4 headlamp is a closed system, screen and mirror build a rather sealed unit, what makes proper cooling even harder.

So my strategy would be: either keep it cheap and make compromises or spend bigger money and buy a reliable, lasting professional replacement headlight. But then it's 600 bucks and more, I guess.

[GuzziMoto]

I am skeptical that an LED retro-fit bulb will ever give as good a light pattern in a headlight originally designed to use a Halogen bulb. It is physically not possible. It will always be a compromise, as luhbo points out.

Now, a replace headlight made to use LED, that is a different situation. I still am not that interested, as I am not a fan of the horrible light LED currently produces. But at least it is possible to get the required light pattern.

[po18guy]

6 hours ago, luhbo said:

While I follow your guys' experiments with great interest I follow them also with equally great scepticism. Cooling is a big issue because the issue starts directly below the light emitting stuff itself. A fan one inch behind the HOT spots cannot help if this primary bonding is somewhat suboptimal.

So, being keen myself on finding a good LED replacement for my H4 bulbs I'm afraid that this won't happen. Mainly because of two reasons: it's more than tricky to pack several relatively big and hot LEDs on a spot small enough to match the reflector's geometry, second an H4 headlamp is a closed system, screen and mirror build a rather sealed unit, what makes proper cooling even harder.

So my strategy would be: either keep it cheap and make compromises or spend bigger money and buy a reliable, lasting professional replacement headlight. But then it's 600 bucks and more, I guess.

Of note, the housing is aluminum and flows into a heat sink - in the middle of which the fan is located. The fan draws in from the back of the unit and blows out past the vanes of the heat sink. I can only say that this design is also the one used (or pioneered) by PIAA in Japan - who seem to know what they are doing. 

[po18guy]

1 hour ago, GuzziMoto said:

I am skeptical that an LED retro-fit bulb will ever give as good a light pattern in a headlight originally designed to use a Halogen bulb. It is physically not possible. It will always be a compromise, as luhbo points out.

Now, a replace headlight made to use LED, that is a different situation. I still am not that interested, as I am not a fan of the horrible light LED currently produces. But at least it is possible to get the required light pattern.

Well then, why not sit back and enjoy our labors and failures, or successes? The units I chose use some of the latest, tiny Phillips ZES LED chips, arranged in the exact location and shape as the wire filament in a halogen bulb. This is crucial, as the reflector neither knows nor cares how the light it reflects is created - only that the light emanates from the same position within the reflector.

The problem with 90% of the early LED units is that they did not use such "filament-sized" chips, and did not locate them in the proper focal plane. This caused the well-known scattered light patterns.  I believe that the LED producers have done, in the more recent designs, a remarkable job of adapting current technology to reflector units designed for the now-ancient halogen technology H4 bulbs. A light unit which is purpose-built for LED illumination can do an even better job - two of the OEM LED-lighted cars that I own demonstrate this.

Most all LED 9003/H4 units allow rotation of the unit in the mount, until the best light pattern is achieved. As we see from docc's low beam pattern, it nicely replicates the halogen unit, but with greater intensity and substantially less power consumption. Hard to find fault with that. I began driving on 6V incandescent bulbs, which were about like the parking lights or DRLs on modern cars. 12V was a good improvement.

Halogen was yet another step ahead, but it is now 50+ years of age and getting rather long in the tooth. HIDs had too many limitations, such as the cost of drivers and bulbs, as well as warm-up time. Like compact fluorescent bulbs, they had their day. I see LED lighting as a 21st century parallel of Thomas Edison's 19th century perfection of the glowing wire lamp.

[luhbo]

13 minutes ago, po18guy said:

Well then, why not sit back and enjoy our labors and failures, or successes? ...

We definitely do so. Definitely interested. Definitely not wanting to piss off anyone Really, in fact I'm a bit tired of reading or writing about different Hawker types for instance, I rather fancy a topic like this one

[po18guy]

9 minutes ago, luhbo said:

We definitely do so. Definitely interested. Definitely not wanting to piss off anyone Really, in fact I'm a bit tired of reading or writing about different Hawker types for instance, I rather fancy a topic like this one

No one here is really inventing anything. Rather, attempting to apply existing and advancing technology to practical use. 

[GuzziMoto]

1 hour ago, po18guy said:

Well then, why not sit back and enjoy our labors and failures, or successes? The units I chose use some of the latest, tiny Phillips ZES LED chips, arranged in the exact location and shape as the wire filament in a halogen bulb. This is crucial, as the reflector neither knows nor cares how the light it reflects is created - only that the light emanates from the same position within the reflector.

The problem with 90% of the early LED units is that they did not use such "filament-sized" chips, and did not locate them in the proper focal plane. This caused the well-known scattered light patterns.  I believe that the LED producers have done, in the more recent designs, a remarkable job of adapting current technology to reflector units designed for the now-ancient halogen technology H4 bulbs. A light unit which is purpose-built for LED illumination can do an even better job - two of the OEM LED-lighted cars that I own demonstrate this.

Most all LED 9003/H4 units allow rotation of the unit in the mount, until the best light pattern is achieved. As we see from docc's low beam pattern, it nicely replicates the halogen unit, but with greater intensity and substantially less power consumption. Hard to find fault with that. I began driving on 6V incandescent bulbs, which were about like the parking lights or DRLs on modern cars. 12V was a good improvement.

Halogen was yet another step ahead, but it is now 50+ years of age and getting rather long in the tooth. HIDs had too many limitations, such as the cost of drivers and bulbs, as well as warm-up time. Like compact fluorescent bulbs, they had their day. I see LED lighting as a 21st century parallel of Thomas Edison's 19th century perfection of the glowing wire lamp.

No worries. Have at it. I am sorry if my post ruffled your feathers. It was not meant to be so. I was simply pointing out the physical issues of trying to adapt LED lighting to a halogen light.

Docs example wasn't as bad as some, but it was still less than a good halogen from what I could see. But have at it, enjoy. As long as you are not blinding me coming the other direction as is so often the case with retro fit LEDs (and sometimes even with factory LEDs) it don't matter to me.

[luhbo]

10 minutes ago, GuzziMoto said:

....As long as you are not blinding me coming the other direction as is so often the case with retro fit LEDs (and sometimes even with factory LEDs) it don't matter to me.

That's the front side only, by night and by day. On the rear side, daytimes, you can't see the flashing LED indicators between the brake lights. VW Rabbit is a typical and infamous example. Don't know how they managed it to get these miserable things officially road worthy ...

[luhbo]

He're some pics from my 2017 experiment. This thingy cost me about 8 Euros, so there wasn't much to be expected resp. lost. The pattern was useless, the voltage regulator got burning hot, a complete failure I'd say.

BTW: following this thread I learned I could have tried to adjust or improve the pattern somehow. The pictures below were taken with the bulb as it came from CN. Nonetheless, I still wouldn't expect very much besides "blinding" or burning me

I do like their motto, though: "Open your eyes to accept the light!" - Guzzi Moto, they meant you
 

[Chuck]

I put one of these

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01C1AOSVS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

in the AeroLario for the princely sum of uh, 19 bucks. I made no attempt whatsoever to aim it, but I'll bet it would get me home if I were to get stuck some place after dark.

Low beam

High beam

Plug and play.

[po18guy]

1 hour ago, GuzziMoto said:

No worries. Have at it. I am sorry if my post ruffled your feathers. It was not meant to be so. I was simply pointing out the physical issues of trying to adapt LED lighting to a halogen light.

Docs example wasn't as bad as some, but it was still less than a good halogen from what I could see. But have at it, enjoy. As long as you are not blinding me coming the other direction as is so often the case with retro fit LEDs (and sometimes even with factory LEDs) it don't matter to me.

Nah, just making counter-points. I'm Scotch-Irish, which would make me a drunk, except the Scotsman is too cheap to buy the liquor. My primary belief here is that brighter, whiter light for less watts is a good thing. Having partaken of four clinical trials, I like research. Got some skin in the game. And, as Albert Einstein reportedly said: "If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research." When all is said and done, and the brilliance (pun) is revealed, give all credit to docc.