Cheap Oil

[GuzziMoto]

 

FWIW No less than Dr. John told Dave Richardson to use SG oil in Guzzis. That's good enough for me. 

 

https://www.rymax-lubricants.com/news/api-specification-this-is-how-it-works/

 

Also from the V11 Sport owners manual:

 

"Good engine offer special features.Only use oils with high detergent power, certified as equivalent or superior to SE, SF or SG duty (this is marked on the container)."

 

SL is superior to SG, thus should be acceptable.

 

 

That is not exactly how oil ratings work. They are backwards, in that an oil that is SL rated will also meet earlier specification. But that doesn't mean the oil is the same as an oil that meets the older specification. The ratings on oil don't specify a minimum of various additives as much as they specify a maximum. And the newer specifications typically have lower maximum limits for various additives. That does not mean an oil that was SG rated CAN'T meet a newer specification, it may not have been at the limits allowed by the older specification. But an oil that was at the limits under the old specification will not be able to meet the newer specification,

Dave, I don't think the consensus is that SL is acceptable and to continue to use SG.

I agree with consensus, given the choice I would pick an oil that only meets the older specification and not an oil that meets the newer specification.

I like Mobil 1 oil, for example, but I would not use it as my first choice in a Guzzi. I don't think your Guzzi will blow up because you used Mobil 1, but I think I will happily spend an extra few dollars on a better oil for my Guzzi as I think that is a small price to pay for such a cool motorcycle.

[swooshdave]

That is not exactly how oil ratings work. They are backwards, in that an oil that is SL rated will also meet earlier specification. But that doesn't mean the oil is the same as an oil that meets the older specification.

 

 

You said that SL will also meet earlier specification. One could infer that this means that SL is >= SG. But then you say that SL ≠ SG.

 

Whereas Moto Guzzi says to use an oil that is >= to SG.

 

I agree that SL is not exactly the same as SG, but do we agree that SL meets the same specifications as SG and in some areas exceeds it?

[LowRyter]

No.  SL does NOT meet SG standards.  SL is made for newer cars for good gas mileage.  SG is made for heavy use for motorcycles (and older vehicles).  Different specs, different mineral additives.  

 

Agree that it is important for wet clutches but also has advantages for air cooled engines with solid lifters. 

 

For a Spine Frame, I would use 20-50 SG Motorcycle oil.

 

There's a complete thread on it.  I like the Castrol Motorcycle Synth Blend.  

[Bill Hagan]

I understand GuzziMoto's "[G]iven the choice I would pick an oil that only meets the older specification and not an oil that meets the newer specification,"  

 

That said, such has not been especially easy (at least for me) to obtain.  Moreover, given that all of my present moto-harem save the EV are "newish," I do not see the harm in the newest API rating as I am unaware of "missing additives" in that range that affect those models.

 

I am, however, trying to reconcile the various posts and this -- http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/API.html-- which I presume to be authorative absent a showing otherwise.

 

Best,

 

Bill

[LowRyter]

I understand GuzziMoto's "[G]iven the choice I would pick an oil that only meets the older specification and not an oil that meets the newer specification,"  

 

That said, such has not been especially easy (at least for me) to obtain.  Moreover, given that all of my present moto-harem save the EV are "newish," I do not see the harm in the newest API rating as I am unaware of "missing additives" in that range that affect those models.

 

I am, however, trying to reconcile the various posts and this -- http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/API.html-- which I presume to be authorative absent a showing otherwise.

 

Best,

 

Bill

 

According to the link:

 

SL Current For 2004 and older automotive engines.

 

I am no lawyer but I don't have an automotive engine in my motorcycle

 

 

 

 

According to the web site for Actevo:

 

   Features:

• Outstanding high temperature oil consumption and oxidation control
• Exceeds API SG, JASO MA2

 

 

 

In the long run, does it matter?  who cares?  Run what ya want.  Maybe it's a marketing gimmick for motorcycle geeks?  I would be pretty square not to use it on my wet clutch Suzuki.  That's a definite no-no.  Or better yet, Suzuki convetional oil which used to be $18/gallon, now $40.

 

Yep, that obsolete SG oil will probably cost more than the new SL stuff.

.  

[docc]

>NOT

[LowRyter]

There's a little bit of trick with that API chart.  Many of the new weights are only available in SL and/or Fully Synth.  

 

Now if you run a Model A Ford that uses straight 20 WT, you won't find an SL oil.  You might not even find straight 20 at all and will have to go with 10w30 which you can probably get in SL grade full synth.   

 

 

I know I got a coupon for a cheap oil change on my '14 Accord from the dealer.  I went over there and they said they couldn't honor the coupon because the coupon was for conventional oil.  I said fine, I'll take conventional.  Well they don't make conventional oil in the weight (0w-20) that goes in my car, despite the weasel words in the owner's manual (probably written by lawyers  ).

 

I did check and you can get 20W50 in SL grade.

[swooshdave]

Your Guzzi engine is closer to an automobile engine than you think. My assumption is that the key difference between motorcycle and automotive oil is the need to support gearboxes. While air cooling is important synthetic oil is more than capable to handle the high heat of an air cooled engine.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[docc]

Seems it's the flat tappets in the Guzzi that differentiate it the most from a modern automotive engine.

 

Oh, well, there is that air cooled thing . . .

[swooshdave]

Seems it's the flat tappets in the Guzzi that differentiate it the most from a modern automotive engine.

 

Oh, well, there is that air cooled thing . . .

 

I mentioned that. Which is why you should probably use a synthetic.

[docc]

And the higher zinc/phoshate (ZDDP) of the SG.

[GuzziMoto]

 

That is not exactly how oil ratings work. They are backwards, in that an oil that is SL rated will also meet earlier specification. But that doesn't mean the oil is the same as an oil that meets the older specification.

 

 

You said that SL will also meet earlier specification. One could infer that this means that SL is >= SG. But then you say that SL ≠ SG.

 

Whereas Moto Guzzi says to use an oil that is >= to SG.

 

I agree that SL is not exactly the same as SG, but do we agree that SL meets the same specifications as SG and in some areas exceeds it?

 

I don't think you understood what I said. I am sorry, I will try to be clearer.

OIl specs like SG, SL, an SM, are not simply a case of an oil that meets the newer standard truly meets the older standard. The standards aren't minimum specs for things in the oil, they are mostly (at least in regard to what we care about) maximum specs for what is in the oil. And the newer standards don't have higher maximums, they have lower maximums. That is to help vehicles with catalytic converters meet emissions standards and not foul up the cat. So, an oil that is only SG rated can have more good things in the oil then an oil that meets SG and SL standards. Does that mean that an SG oil automatically has more good things in it then an oil that is both SG and SL rated? No. But it likely does as if the SG only oil could have been rated SL as well it would have been rated SL as well. That is how you have oils that are rated for more than one standard. So, an oil that meets an older standard may also meet the newer standard, but only if the levels of certain additives was low enough that it doesn't exceed the newer standard limits. So, while an oil that meets the newer standards typically "meets" the older standard, that is only if you look at it backwards and normally an oil that is designed from the ground up to meet a newer standard won't be listed as also meeting the older standard. Usually, when you see an oil that is labeled as meeting more than one standard it is an oil that was originally certified as meeting the older standard and when the newer standard came out it happened to also meet that standard. That would be because it was not at or near the additive level limits of the older standard. If it had as much of the various limited additives as the older standard allowed it would not have meet the newer standard. But most oils tend to be we within the limits. So it is not that unusual for an oil to meet more than one standard. But an oil that only meets the old standard, like SG, but has too much of the various limited additives in it won't meet the newer standards. If you look at the oil standards backwards, they make more sense. The oil rating standards are, as it concerns us, setting lower and lower maximum limits for things we want in our oil. Newer standards have lower maximum limits for those additives.

An oil that meets only the SG standard, which is usually the oldest standard we care about, and the standard of oil our Guzzi motors were built to run, may meet newer standards if it was not pushing the limits of what the SG standard allowed. But a newer oil that technically meets both standards, or simply an oil that only meets the newer standard, has to comply with lower limits on the good additives that we want. So an older spec SG oil can have more anti-wear additives than an oil that only meets or also meets the newer standards. So, no. An oil that meets SL specs is not equal to or greater than an oil that only meets SG specs. The SL oil might also be SG rated, but the fact that it is SL rated means it meets the lower maximum limit standards for various anti-wear additives of  the SL spec. If it were only SG rated it would only have to meet the higher maximum limits for anti-wear additives of SG.

I hope that helped explain my point of view.

Typically an oil that is only SG rated will only meet the older standard which means it will have more good additives in it, like ZDDP and other anti-wear additives. Those things are bad for catalytic converters so the newer oil specs reduce the amount of those oil can have. But flat tappets really like those anti-wear additives. Will your motor blow up because you used an oil that was SL rated? probably not. But it is possible that your motor will have higher wear rates and may not last quite as long. But in the end, it is up to you, I don't have a dog in the fight. Use whatever oil you want. Change it as often as you want. I can't see it from my house.

SG oil is fairly easy to get. There are a few brands that offer it. It may cost a little more than, say, Mobil 1 from Wally World. But I love my Guzzi's and don't have an issue paying a few dollars more every oil change to use the oil they were designed to run.

[Chuck]

Very good explanation. Actually, Valvoline dino oil is SG, and available generally for about 4 bux a bottle. Castrol4T is SG also. I run either in the Monza and MZ.

In the Mighty Scura and Aero engine, I run MOtul 10-60. Around 11-12 a liter, and SG rated, also. I, personally can't see not running an SG oil in our flat tappet engines.

[Gmc28]

Oil threads..... why do we do it?    Late winter, raining outside, so why not?  So i'll just lob in my pointless opinion -

Back when forums were a new thing, and I had an oilhead, i got sucked into the oil topic.  Did a lot of reading at that point, learned the reality of how pointless most of it was, but also how entertaining it could be for us moto heads.

At that time I ferreted out the old salts on that BMW forum that seemed to speak intelligently about it, did some outside reading, and for whatever reason came to the conclusion that Rotella diesel oil did in fact at least meet the spec for my bikes, and have run nothing but diesel oil ever since. 

Not even the hint of a complaint in the ensuing couple decades, through all sorts of bikes and at least a couple hundred thousand miles.  Maybe i'd be better off if i'd run something different (?), but highly doubt it, and if so it's on such a tiny scale that it would be pointless.  My high mile used bikes that i've put lots of miles on and then sold have always run great and with little to no oil consumption.

 

The other more reliable argument, nice and cave-man style to keep it simple, is that synthetic obviously has the better heat/breakdown qualities than dyno, so if we're air cooled, synthetic should make a difference.  Does it?  Don't know, but that part at least appeals on a simpler level to my brain, as we know the air coolers can see some high temps that water coolers don't necessarily ever see.  

The argument that a machine was designed to run with a certain grade of oil makes some sense to me, but thats balanced against the idea that in the old days engines generally didn't last as long.  Engine life has improved for a variety of reasons, but I'd think that engine oil is perhaps a small part of that equation, though i would expect there's no panacea there like oil companies would have us believe.

The lack or presence of zinc as a relevant factor seems an illusive thing, except speaking from my limited perspective i'd say that on the high pressure oil diesel injectors (4000psi or higher), lack of zinc in large numbers of rigs has been blamed for premature (Bosch) injector wear (expensive problem for us Bosch injector owners).  But 4000psi oil actuated fuel injection is (blissfully) not part of our guzzi conversation.

 

On top of that, the argument was used here that the price of oil makes it worth just buying the better stuff.  I'd argue the opposite.... since I've never been able to see any conceivable consequence from my (good?) choice of oil (my rotella diesel oil is way cheaper than moto oil, but as a synthetic it's still a bit more expensive than some other options...), then over the course of a 100k miles on a bike a guy may have spent an extra $1500 or more on special motorcycle oil, money i'd rather spend on more interesting stuff (please enjoy filling in the blank...).  Yes, 100k miles takes a while, but time marches on, we keep adding (happy) miles, and eventually we get there, one way or another... until we don't (RIP).

Long live Rotella synthetic diesel oil in large containers at Wally world!

[czakky]

Gmc, I admire you honestly. I just don’t have the nerve to dump a $12.99/gal jug of oil into my bike.

I’ve always used mobil1 which seems to split the difference between the Rotella and Motul folks.

 

I burn a bit, but it’s consistent.