Cheap Oil

[docc]

All good reasoning, Gmc28. Diesel oils do tend to have the higher ZDDP anti-wear additives relative to modern passenger car oils . I use three different Rotella products in my passenger vehicles, and routinely use their T6 Turbo Diesel product/ 5W-40 (probably has not been kind to the cats in that vehicle).

 

CI-4 rated diesel oils are great choices for flat tappet motors (according to Richard Widman. (Richard Widman's Corvair)

 

Like "Rotella",  > Mobile1

 

Plus, I "change my oil religiously." ( flowing robes, ring of candles, tolling bells, incense . . . you know: the works!)

[docc]

So, yeah: *whatever* on the oil, but make sure you get the incense right . . .

[Gmc28]

The incense is indeed the key!

Mine smells like an old garage/shop...

 

I see these Dakar racers that change their oil every night, and install a new chain every other day, and so on.  They ride hard, and take it very seriously, but wow.  I think some of that may rub off on us motor heads.

 

Then you meet guys that do the opposite, and seem to do ok as well.... I had a friend mention that he changes his moto oil about every other year, which in his case was about every 10-15k miles.  Hmmm.  And he's been around long enough to have a track record, which in his case has meant no real motor drama over the years that he's been riding, and he's not a young man.  Started out just doing that because he was cheap, but after enough years realized it didn't seem to be an issue. 

And I worked with a guy in the 90's who really raised eyebrows, and I knew him just well enough to state that i don't think he was fibbing:  He had some sort of chevy sedan that he bought new, and he literally never, ever changed the oil.  He said he changed the filter a few times only by the time he turned over 100k miles on that chevy, and never changed the oil.  Wow.  And he never had engine issues that i know of, though i gotta assume he was burning some.  Certainly not endorsing that, but its a good spooky bed-time story....  like about how Jim Fixx died at age 40 even though he was a fitness fanatic, or how your crazy great aunt lived to 102 smokin' and drinkin' her way through life.

[swooshdave]

I don't think you understood what I said. I am sorry, I will try to be clearer.

 

 

OIl specs like SG, SL, an SM, are not simply a case of an oil that meets the newer standard truly meets the older standard. The standards aren't minimum specs for things in the oil, they are mostly (at least in regard to what we care about) maximum specs for what is in the oil. And the newer standards don't have higher maximums, they have lower maximums. That is to help vehicles with catalytic converters meet emissions standards and not foul up the cat. So, an oil that is only SG rated can have more good things in the oil then an oil that meets SG and SL standards. Does that mean that an SG oil automatically has more good things in it then an oil that is both SG and SL rated? No. But it likely does as if the SG only oil could have been rated SL as well it would have been rated SL as well. That is how you have oils that are rated for more than one standard. So, an oil that meets an older standard may also meet the newer standard, but only if the levels of certain additives was low enough that it doesn't exceed the newer standard limits. So, while an oil that meets the newer standards typically "meets" the older standard, that is only if you look at it backwards and normally an oil that is designed from the ground up to meet a newer standard won't be listed as also meeting the older standard. Usually, when you see an oil that is labeled as meeting more than one standard it is an oil that was originally certified as meeting the older standard and when the newer standard came out it happened to also meet that standard. That would be because it was not at or near the additive level limits of the older standard. If it had as much of the various limited additives as the older standard allowed it would not have meet the newer standard. But most oils tend to be we within the limits. So it is not that unusual for an oil to meet more than one standard. But an oil that only meets the old standard, like SG, but has too much of the various limited additives in it won't meet the newer standards. If you look at the oil standards backwards, they make more sense. The oil rating standards are, as it concerns us, setting lower and lower maximum limits for things we want in our oil. Newer standards have lower maximum limits for those additives.

An oil that meets only the SG standard, which is usually the oldest standard we care about, and the standard of oil our Guzzi motors were built to run, may meet newer standards if it was not pushing the limits of what the SG standard allowed. But a newer oil that technically meets both standards, or simply an oil that only meets the newer standard, has to comply with lower limits on the good additives that we want. So an older spec SG oil can have more anti-wear additives than an oil that only meets or also meets the newer standards. So, no. An oil that meets SL specs is not equal to or greater than an oil that only meets SG specs. The SL oil might also be SG rated, but the fact that it is SL rated means it meets the lower maximum limit standards for various anti-wear additives of  the SL spec. If it were only SG rated it would only have to meet the higher maximum limits for anti-wear additives of SG.

I hope that helped explain my point of view.

Typically an oil that is only SG rated will only meet the older standard which means it will have more good additives in it, like ZDDP and other anti-wear additives. Those things are bad for catalytic converters so the newer oil specs reduce the amount of those oil can have. But flat tappets really like those anti-wear additives. Will your motor blow up because you used an oil that was SL rated? probably not. But it is possible that your motor will have higher wear rates and may not last quite as long. But in the end, it is up to you, I don't have a dog in the fight. Use whatever oil you want. Change it as often as you want. I can't see it from my house.

SG oil is fairly easy to get. There are a few brands that offer it. It may cost a little more than, say, Mobil 1 from Wally World. But I love my Guzzi's and don't have an issue paying a few dollars more every oil change to use the oil they were designed to run.

 

 

Of course I would have assumed the standards would be for minimums and not maximums. But that's why we have these discussions.

 

So when the label says "extra anti-wear protection (zinc)" what that means is that is has extra compared to... I hate marketing people.

 

They need a nutritional label so we know what goes into each oil. Wouldn't that be fun? That would put an end to oil discussions on forums. Right?

 

Grade Zinc, Phos 

SM MAX 800

SL/SJ 1000-1400

SH 1000-1400

SG 1000-1400

SF 1000-1400

SE 1000-1200

SD 1000-1200

SC 1000-1200

SB 1000

SA 0

 

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=printthread&Board=1&main=73571&type=thread

 

Oh, look, same range for SG and SL for zinc.

Edited February 15, 2018 by swooshdave

[GuzziMoto]

 

I don't think you understood what I said. I am sorry, I will try to be clearer.

 

 

OIl specs like SG, SL, an SM, are not simply a case of an oil that meets the newer standard truly meets the older standard. The standards aren't minimum specs for things in the oil, they are mostly (at least in regard to what we care about) maximum specs for what is in the oil. And the newer standards don't have higher maximums, they have lower maximums. That is to help vehicles with catalytic converters meet emissions standards and not foul up the cat. So, an oil that is only SG rated can have more good things in the oil then an oil that meets SG and SL standards. Does that mean that an SG oil automatically has more good things in it then an oil that is both SG and SL rated? No. But it likely does as if the SG only oil could have been rated SL as well it would have been rated SL as well. That is how you have oils that are rated for more than one standard. So, an oil that meets an older standard may also meet the newer standard, but only if the levels of certain additives was low enough that it doesn't exceed the newer standard limits. So, while an oil that meets the newer standards typically "meets" the older standard, that is only if you look at it backwards and normally an oil that is designed from the ground up to meet a newer standard won't be listed as also meeting the older standard. Usually, when you see an oil that is labeled as meeting more than one standard it is an oil that was originally certified as meeting the older standard and when the newer standard came out it happened to also meet that standard. That would be because it was not at or near the additive level limits of the older standard. If it had as much of the various limited additives as the older standard allowed it would not have meet the newer standard. But most oils tend to be we within the limits. So it is not that unusual for an oil to meet more than one standard. But an oil that only meets the old standard, like SG, but has too much of the various limited additives in it won't meet the newer standards. If you look at the oil standards backwards, they make more sense. The oil rating standards are, as it concerns us, setting lower and lower maximum limits for things we want in our oil. Newer standards have lower maximum limits for those additives.

An oil that meets only the SG standard, which is usually the oldest standard we care about, and the standard of oil our Guzzi motors were built to run, may meet newer standards if it was not pushing the limits of what the SG standard allowed. But a newer oil that technically meets both standards, or simply an oil that only meets the newer standard, has to comply with lower limits on the good additives that we want. So an older spec SG oil can have more anti-wear additives than an oil that only meets or also meets the newer standards. So, no. An oil that meets SL specs is not equal to or greater than an oil that only meets SG specs. The SL oil might also be SG rated, but the fact that it is SL rated means it meets the lower maximum limit standards for various anti-wear additives of  the SL spec. If it were only SG rated it would only have to meet the higher maximum limits for anti-wear additives of SG.

I hope that helped explain my point of view.

Typically an oil that is only SG rated will only meet the older standard which means it will have more good additives in it, like ZDDP and other anti-wear additives. Those things are bad for catalytic converters so the newer oil specs reduce the amount of those oil can have. But flat tappets really like those anti-wear additives. Will your motor blow up because you used an oil that was SL rated? probably not. But it is possible that your motor will have higher wear rates and may not last quite as long. But in the end, it is up to you, I don't have a dog in the fight. Use whatever oil you want. Change it as often as you want. I can't see it from my house.

SG oil is fairly easy to get. There are a few brands that offer it. It may cost a little more than, say, Mobil 1 from Wally World. But I love my Guzzi's and don't have an issue paying a few dollars more every oil change to use the oil they were designed to run.

 

 

Of course I would have assumed the standards would be for minimums and not maximums. But that's why we have these discussions.

 

So when the label says "extra anti-wear protection (zinc)" what that means is that is has extra compared to... I hate marketing people.

 

They need a nutritional label so we know what goes into each oil. Wouldn't that be fun? That would put an end to oil discussions on forums. Right?

 

Grade Zinc, Phos 

SM MAX 800

SL/SJ 1000-1400

SH 1000-1400

SG 1000-1400

SF 1000-1400

SE 1000-1200

SD 1000-1200

SC 1000-1200

SB 1000

SA 0

 

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=printthread&Board=1&main=73571&type=thread

 

Oh, look, same range for SG and SL for zinc.

 

On the one hand, I love your suggestion for a "nutritional label" showing additives. That would be awesome.

But then, I fear, we would only argue even more.....

I have no issues with people who run quality car oil, or quality diesel oil. Rotella is well known and regarded as an option for motorcycles.

I try to avoid naming specific brands of oil as "what I run". While it might slip out once in a blue moon, that is not what I try to convey in an oil debate. I am interested in talking about differences between various oils, and what types of oils suit our chosen steed. That is not directed at anyone naming their chosen brand, just expressing my interest in not getting into a "my oil can beat up your oil" debate.

[Scud]

The diesel oil suggestion is interesting. It looks like most synthetic diesel oils are 5w-40 (including the Shell Rotella), which is lower viscosity than recommended in the manual.

 

GMC - Are you running 5w-40 in your bikes? Also, the synthetic diesel oils claim very long service intervals. How many miles are you going between oil changes?

 

And FWIW - I'm running organic diesel oil in my old Ford 7.3 Turbo-Diesel. Close to 3 gallons every oil change... And I run organic car oil in my BMW K75s. But heck, that basically IS a car engine. I've been running motorcycle-specific oil in the Guzzis, but not liking the idea that they are meant for wet-clutch engines.

[swooshdave]

On the one hand, I love your suggestion for a "nutritional label" showing additives. That would be awesome.

 

But then, I fear, we would only argue even more.....

I have no issues with people who run quality car oil, or quality diesel oil. Rotella is well known and regarded as an option for motorcycles.

I try to avoid naming specific brands of oil as "what I run". While it might slip out once in a blue moon, that is not what I try to convey in an oil debate. I am interested in talking about differences between various oils, and what types of oils suit our chosen steed. That is not directed at anyone naming their chosen brand, just expressing my interest in not getting into a "my oil can beat up your oil" debate.

 

At this point I think the two biggest drivers of the internet is porn and oil threads. 

[Gmc28]

The diesel oil suggestion is interesting. It looks like most synthetic diesel oils are 5w-40 (including the Shell Rotella), which is lower viscosity than recommended in the manual.

 

GMC - Are you running 5w-40 in your bikes? Also, the synthetic diesel oils claim very long service intervals. How many miles are you going between oil changes?

 

And FWIW - I'm running organic diesel oil in my old Ford 7.3 Turbo-Diesel. Close to 3 gallons every oil change... And I run organic car oil in my BMW K75s. But heck, that basically IS a car engine. I've been running motorcycle-specific oil in the Guzzis, but not liking the idea that they are meant for wet-clutch engines.

Scud - i usually run 15w-40 synthetic diesel oil, though have on occasion run 5w-40 synth.  Ran it in the oilhead for 80k miles too, and while it went through a little oil, it never changed over the life of the bike.... about a quart between each oil change, regardless of age.

 

And I run it in my 6.0 diesel as well (no surprise there i assume), and ran it in my 7.3's before that, though I also would sometimes just run regular old Delo dyno in the 7.3's.  The 6.0 has the higher pressure injectors and more finicky systems, so i make the caveman assumption that the newer, higher spec oil may help, but don't know.  Apples to oranges compared to the goose, but the 6.0 is just now turning 300k miles, and with 5k oil change intervals, it loses approximately zero oil  between changesn(less than I can see on a dip stick, and certainly less than a quart every 5k).  There are those who do the extended change intervals, and successfully, running 15-20k miles between changes, and some with fleets that go even longer, with most of those guys apparently doing the oil sample thing as well to monitor oil health. (I do run a secondary bypass filter as well, but there again i just did that because it seemed like a decent idea, and wasn't expensive, but i can't vouch for how helpful it has been.)

[Scud]

Thanks for the info. I think my 7.3 would run on butter and bacon grease.  Which oilhead did you have? I had a 1996 R1100RT.

 

I am seriously thinking about synthetic diesel for next Moto Guzzi oil change. Makes sense, saves money... what's not to like?

[swooshdave]

Thanks for the info. I think my 7.3 would run on butter and bacon grease.  Which oilhead did you have? I had a 1996 R1100RT.

 

I am seriously thinking about synthetic diesel for next Moto Guzzi oil change. Makes sense, saves money... what's not to like?

 

Is diesel oil cheaper that auto oil?

[Chuck]

Thanks for the info. I think my 7.3 would run on butter and bacon grease.  Which oilhead did you have? I had a 1996 R1100RT.

 

I am seriously thinking about synthetic diesel for next Moto Guzzi oil change. Makes sense, saves money... what's not to like?

Ok, to perpetuate the yearly "Winter Oil Thread" .. diesel oil has some very serious detergent additives that *may* loosen up some mung that has been content to lay in galleries if you are putting it in a high time engine.

I gave an enema to a high time aircraft engine by changing oil brands.    Killed it in about 50 hours. Of course, it wasn't an oil filter engine, but still..

[GuzziMoto]

Another interesting aspect for discussion.

Everyone tends to focus on the second number, like the 40 in 10w40. But the first number is the base oil. A 10w40 oil is 10 weight oil that has visocity modifiers in it to make it act like a 40 oil at high temps (I think the standard is at 100 degrees C). A 15w40 is made with a slightly thicker base stock oil than a 10w40 oil.

Another interesting aspect is that oil viscosity is not highly regulated, and one brands oil may be thicker or thinner than another brands oil.

[swooshdave]

Another interesting aspect for discussion.

Everyone tends to focus on the second number, like the 40 in 10w40. But the first number is the base oil. A 10w40 oil is 10 weight oil that has visocity modifiers in it to make it act like a 40 oil at high temps (I think the standard is at 100 degrees C). A 15w40 is made with a slightly thicker base stock oil than a 10w40 oil.

Another interesting aspect is that oil viscosity is not highly regulated, and one brands oil may be thicker or thinner than another brands oil.

 

http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/engine-oil/

 

Pretty sure if it's SAE rated it does have to be a certain viscosity. I think that prior to standardization the viscosity may have varied.

[docc]

 

Another interesting aspect for discussion.

Everyone tends to focus on the second number, like the 40 in 10w40. But the first number is the base oil. A 10w40 oil is 10 weight oil that has visocity modifiers in it to make it act like a 40 oil at high temps (I think the standard is at 100 degrees C). A 15w40 is made with a slightly thicker base stock oil than a 10w40 oil.

Another interesting aspect is that oil viscosity is not highly regulated, and one brands oil may be thicker or thinner than another brands oil.

 

http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/engine-oil/

 

Pretty sure if it's SAE rated it does have to be a certain viscosity. I think that prior to standardization the viscosity may have varied.

 

So, as it turns out, the "SAE weight"  is a rather broad range of actual viscosity. The better measure is centiStokes@100ºC (or 40ºC).  With fork oils, the spread of actual viscosity within a particular SAE designation is quite broad (overlapping, even).

 

For example, motor oils marketed for "high mileage" engines typically are spec'd into the higher viscosity in the stated SAE "weight" range.

[Gmc28]

 

Thanks for the info. I think my 7.3 would run on butter and bacon grease.  Which oilhead did you have? I had a 1996 R1100RT.

 

I am seriously thinking about synthetic diesel for next Moto Guzzi oil change. Makes sense, saves money... what's not to like?

 

Is diesel oil cheaper that auto oil?

 

probably about the same price?  I dont have any gas cars left.. just 2 diesels (6.0 F350 and a 3cyl Smart Diesel), plus the wifes all-electric go-fast car (no oil of course).  and from memory i seem to recall it comes in the big jugs at wally world for between about $20-28 usually, depending on sales and which grade.  T6 is the full synth. 

And to be clear, I don't necessarily argue in favor of diesel oil, only that it has worked great for me in a good number of 2 wheelers over a good amount of time and miles, for reasons that seem to be based on good logic back when i last looked into it more closely (a long time ago).  And it all began for me when I walked out of a bike dealer in denver a number of years ago with oil (Motul?) for the 2 italian machines I had at the time, looked at my receipt, and about up-chucked.  That's when i took the blue pill (or was it the red pill?)...

 

As an aside, given the forum, I believe the modifiers in diesel oil also serve (or are equivalent to all or some of) the friction modifiers for wet clutches.  I came across that assertion some time ago, from a self proclaimed oil guy.  I dug into it just enough to see the ratings definitions did in fact seem to match on the key elements, and whether right or wrong it led me to try it in my old '92 Suzuk DR350/441, with its wet clutch, and its worked a charm ever since.  That bike doesn't get many miles/hours, so I can't speak to the wear side of the discussion for that bike, but the wet clutch works great.  Also true for my newer 06 WR450R.  But of course our dry clutch MG machines don't care....