Cheap Oil

[swooshdave]

 

 

Another interesting aspect for discussion.

Everyone tends to focus on the second number, like the 40 in 10w40. But the first number is the base oil. A 10w40 oil is 10 weight oil that has visocity modifiers in it to make it act like a 40 oil at high temps (I think the standard is at 100 degrees C). A 15w40 is made with a slightly thicker base stock oil than a 10w40 oil.

Another interesting aspect is that oil viscosity is not highly regulated, and one brands oil may be thicker or thinner than another brands oil.

http://www.viscopedia.com/viscosity-tables/substances/engine-oil/

 

Pretty sure if it's SAE rated it does have to be a certain viscosity. I think that prior to standardization the viscosity may have varied.

So, as it turns out, the "SAE weight" is a rather broad range of actual viscosity. The better measure is centiStokes@100ºC (or 40ºC). With fork oils, the spread of actual viscosity within a particular SAE designation is quite broad (overlapping, even).

 

For example, motor oils marketed for "high mileage" engines typically are spec'd into the higher viscosity in the stated SAE "weight" range.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/viscosity-charts/

 

I wouldn’t consider that a huge range. Seems reasonable.

 

 

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[docc]

Yep, for motor oil, it is "reasonable" and not "huge."

 

For fork oil,  much more worth knowing about.

[LowRyter]

GMC28

 

My Suzuki Bandit eats clutches.  Using Rotella was the death knell for clutch #2. I've never used it since in anything but my Duramax.  Funny, I used it in the Bandit because I read the positives on Max Suzuki board. Then I read -never to use it- on the same board but it was too late.

 

Looking back, I am not certain Rotella killed that clutch but I don't walk under that ladder again.  

[GuzziMoto]

Two things about oil weight ratings.

First, their is no oil weight rating police. It is a self tested, self administered rating. There is no agency, government or otherwise, that tests oils to make sure they meet  their rating.

Couple that with the range allowed, and you can end up with a 20w50 oil that flows better at low temps then a 10w40 oil, for example. The oil companies themselves do their testing and decide what rating to put on the bottle. In certain situations, like the aforementioned 20w50, they chose to give it that rating because they felt it would sell better than if they labeled it a 10w50 oil. And they are probably right.

It really is something like tire sizes. You can have a 34 x 10.5 - 17 tire for my Jeep that is shorter than a 33 x 12.5 - 17 tire from another brand.

Just throwing another log on the oil debate fire.....

[Chuck]

 

 

ust throwing another log on the oil debate fire.....

Gotta do *something* to get through the Winter..

[GuzziMoto]

 

 

 

ust throwing another log on the oil debate fire.....

Gotta do *something* to get through the Winter..

 

Yep, we have another cold snap coming with possible snow.....

Fire it up!

On the other hand, I could go skiing.....

[swooshdave]

Two things about oil weight ratings.

First, their is no oil weight rating police. It is a self tested, self administered rating. There is no agency, government or otherwise, that tests oils to make sure they meet their rating.

Couple that with the range allowed, and you can end up with a 20w50 oil that flows better at low temps then a 10w40 oil, for example. The oil companies themselves do their testing and decide what rating to put on the bottle. In certain situations, like the aforementioned 20w50, they chose to give it that rating because they felt it would sell better than if they labeled it a 10w50 oil. And they are probably right.

It really is something like tire sizes. You can have a 34 x 10.5 - 17 tire for my Jeep that is shorter than a 33 x 12.5 - 17 tire from another brand.

Just throwing another log on the oil debate fire.....

I think people use the argument that the ratings don’t mean anything to further oil debates. Which means two things, either the statement that the rating don’t really mean much is false or... it really doesn’t matter which oil you use as low my as you have oil in the engine.

 

I have enough wacky conspiracy theories that I subscribe to, I don’t need an oil one.

 

And yes, it’s going to snow this weekend so I have nothing worthwhile to do.

 

 

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[GuzziMoto]

 

Two things about oil weight ratings.

First, their is no oil weight rating police. It is a self tested, self administered rating. There is no agency, government or otherwise, that tests oils to make sure they meet their rating.

Couple that with the range allowed, and you can end up with a 20w50 oil that flows better at low temps then a 10w40 oil, for example. The oil companies themselves do their testing and decide what rating to put on the bottle. In certain situations, like the aforementioned 20w50, they chose to give it that rating because they felt it would sell better than if they labeled it a 10w50 oil. And they are probably right.

It really is something like tire sizes. You can have a 34 x 10.5 - 17 tire for my Jeep that is shorter than a 33 x 12.5 - 17 tire from another brand.

Just throwing another log on the oil debate fire.....

I think people use the argument that the ratings don’t mean anything to further oil debates. Which means two things, either the statement that the rating don’t really mean much is false or... it really doesn’t matter which oil you use as low my as you have oil in the engine.

 

I have enough wacky conspiracy theories that I subscribe to, I don’t need an oil one.

 

And yes, it’s going to snow this weekend so I have nothing worthwhile to do.

 

 

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I think you mis-understand what I said. I did not say oil weight ratings do not mean anything. They certainly do, and what they mean is important.

What I said was that oil weight ratings don't always mean the exact same thing. There is a difference. One brand oil may not compare directly and exactly to another brand. There can be a difference between brands. The example I gave was from my own personal experience.

That is not a conspiracy theory, I have no time for them. Even in the middle of winter.

[swooshdave]

So you’re saying that different brands, for the same weight, may go outside the given ranges? And the reason is because no one checks? And the one reason is because they want to?

 

And your personal example was due to scientific measurements?

 

 

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[GuzziMoto]

So you’re saying that different brands, for the same weight, may go outside the given ranges? And the reason is because no one checks? And the one reason is because they want to?

 

And your personal example was due to scientific measurements?

 

 

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Yes and no. You seem to be taking what I say and running with it.

I am saying that the weight ratings are ranges. I am also saying that it is the brands themselves that test and rate their own oil. There is no entity that monitors and verifies the ratings.

I am saying that they can and will rate an oil that could be one rating or the other based on what rating they think will sell better.

And the example given was based on the manufacturers published tests. Were they "scientific measurements"? I don't know but I hope so.

I think you are taking all this way too personally. Perhaps I am reading you wrong, if so I am sorry.

But I feel unless things change, this is a waste of time and I am out.

[swooshdave]

Well, the good news is that I've never taken anything on the internet personally. 

 

Couple that with the range allowed, and you can end up with a 20w50 oil that flows better at low temps then a 10w40 oil, for example. The oil companies themselves do their testing and decide what rating to put on the bottle. In certain situations, like the aforementioned 20w50, they chose to give it that rating because they felt it would sell better than if they labeled it a 10w50 oil. And they are probably right.

 

It's just that this statement doesn't make sense to me. The grades do not overlap in their ranges. Did I miss the part where there was evidence of an oil manufacturer selling an oil as one grade when it wasn't actually that grade?

[docc]

Specifically speaking to the Original Post and thread title, "Cheap oil" is kept cheap by using the cheapest base oil. With regard to viscosity degradation, these base oils suffer shear degradation of viscosity sooner than higher grade base oils. This statement is from Richard Widman's "Selection of the Right Motor Oil" (page 9):

 

 

"Permanent shear:

 

A cheap oil that depends on polymers for its multigrade properties begins to lose viscosity between 1000 and 1500 miles of use, falling out of its viscosity range."

 

 

If you're serious about reading something "scientific" about motor oil, that applies to our V11, take the time and read Widman's presentation.

 

http://www.widman.biz/uploads/Corvair_oil.pdf

[swooshdave]

One thing that concerned me the most in all of this reading (let's be honest, that Corvair white paper was just too long for my attention span) is that oil manufacturers are now using a non-synthetic base and allowed to call it synthetic. This may or may not be a thing.

[thumper]

STP in the blue bottle 1/2 pint at each oil change very good zddp. Just me its what I do and sleep well at night.

Used to split the bottle between the Ducati 996 and the V11. Sold the duck. Never sell a bike you REALLY like to a next door neighbor!!

Glad he moved and took the bike with him.

[docc]

One thing that concerned me the most in all of this reading (let's be honest, that Corvair white paper was just too long for my attention span) is that oil manufacturers are now using a non-synthetic base and allowed to call it synthetic. This may or may not be a thing.

Yep. Most "synthetic" labelled motor oil is a disappointment. When I decided to go with a guaranteed Group V base oil, selection was narrowed fantastically.

 

TLDR? (Too Long - Didn't Read) . . . Yeah, I use Widman's work as more of a reference. I always learn something from him, while much of it remains over my head.  But, he does cut to the chase periodically:

 

 

"Why are there cheap, old technology, group I products in the market?

Because people buy them and these oil companies have equipment

they would otherwise have to write off."