02 V11 LeMans Bike No Start Issue

[GuzziYang]

Its been a while since I post anything and my V11 LeMans was running fine but past month I got intermittent no start issues, like when I go push the start bottom all I hear is the click on the relays but that's it. Nothing.  It happen to me few month when after I bought the bike so replace the positive and negative battery cables with heavier gauge copper wire for better connections.

 

I replace all the stock replay's with better replacement kinds.

 

I connect a second ground wire from rectifier to the frame to improve grounding.

 

The starter switch connection was rerouted to avoid any binding.

 

At first I thought it was old battery problem its 4-5 years already so I bought a new Odyssey 545 charge it up and still just give a click, no start.

 

The only thing I have not address soon after I got my V11 is something relating to the bank of fuse box.  Something about the wiring  underneath that might cause problems? 

 

I have not been on here for few years and wondering if any solution people have come up with No Start issues?  as I need help now as I have a dead bike in the garage.  The symptom is gradual, it was no reaction when I push the start  bottom but after few tries it did connect, then the no start frequencies become more often, until few weeks ago it just won't start, leave it over night, still the same, change the battery still the same.  Any help is appreciated.  thanks

[JRD]

Sounds like your bike has developed the "Startus Interruptus Syndrome".  Lots of threads and info about this here and over on the Wild Guzzi Forum.  Basically it amounts to wiring that was minimal at best when the bikes left the factory.  Over the years the resistance increases until the bikes start blowing fuses when you tr and start the bike.  

If your bike has not started blowing the fuse, it may also be the grease hardening inside the ignition switch.  Either way, not terribly difficult to remedy.

 

Give a shout if you need more info or help.

 

Jerry

[bbolesaz]

My starter is getting intermittent.  I can hear the relays click under the seat and hear some click from the main solenoid on the starter itself, but no rotation.  Usually catches after a few tries.  Did all of the stuff listed above already also. Guess it's time for a new starter.

[bbolesaz]

The V11 uses a Valeo starter, yes?

 

In BMW Airhead land, a click and no rotation is a common occurrence with Valeo's.  Solution is aftermarket starters using Nippondenso guts.

 

Anything similar in Guzzi land?

[bbolesaz]

Found this poking around Euro Moto Electrics site -

 

[docc]

The spade terminal at the solenoid is also the place to test a jump wire to from the battery (+) or even the starter end of the (+) battery cable.

 

If the starter spins up, the trouble is not the starter, itself, nor its solenoid.

 

Easy test.

[gstallons]

# 1 Get the best test light you can get. 

# 2 Disconnect the spade connector from the starter , ground the lead of the test light to a good ground . Touch the probe of the test light to the spade terminal of the start wire and try to start the bike . If it lights the start switch circuit is good. *

Reconnect & retry . 

 Probe the solenoid terminal where the terminal / wire goes into the starting motor . Try to start again . If this results in a test light ON , the starting motor is bad & needs replacement .

# 3 * if the test light did not light up , the problem needs to be addressed in the start circuit .

[GuzziYang]

Thanks for all the leads, never thought  about the starter or the solenoid so that's what I have to look into next.   You guys are suggesting I connect the battery + directly to the starter motor positive?  Is the solenoid inside the starter motor? its been a while since I dab around that area.

[docc]

Thanks for all the leads, never thought  about the starter or the solenoid so that's what I have to look into next.   You guys are suggesting I connect the battery + directly to the starter motor positive?  Is the solenoid inside the starter motor? its been a while since I dab around that area.

Look at the image brubache posted in Post#5. You will see the solenoid just above the starter motor, looking from the back.

 

The large top connection is the (+) battery cable. Jumping that (full voltage from the battery!) to the "spade terminal" should turn the starter. Watch yer eyes: there may be sparks!

 

All of those connections benefit from cleaning (take apart, scrape, sand, spray contact cleaner), and sealing (Vaseline®, or Caig DeOxit®) and tightening well.

 

It helps to remove the cosmetic starter cover and, perhaps, the remote shock adjuster to get to all of that.

 

Most of these issues end up being *connections*, voltage, or *relays*.

[Kiwi_Roy]

No run a temporary wire from the spade connector on the starter solenoid, make sure the bike is in neutral, pull the clutch and touch the other end of wire to battery +, if it spins over the starter is ok.
If it doesn't spin clean the battery terminals and try again. You will get quite a spark as you do this, that's the energy stored in the solenoid,

The next step would be to measure the battery Voltage while you try to start, measure it from battery + to the chassis ,if it drops low then try from battery negative to chassis (this checks the battery ground)

 

The starter solenoid would like to draw 40 Amps so it needs a good supply, later bikes run it through the ignition switch which is not a good idea.

 

I'm almost certain if you clean the ignition switch and lube it with fresh Vaseline it will start again. The switch is held onto the lock by two Phillips screws, look up from below.

Pull the battery ground off while you do it, the back is held on by a couple of plastic clips then the white switch plate tilts out.

On re-assembly fix the wires to the back cover so they don't flex at the solder joint and snap off.

 

You probably wonder how a 15 Amp fuse can carry 40 Amps, it's only for a about 10 - 50 milliseconds while the solenoid is pulling in to engage the gear and close the main contacts.

Once the gear is engaged the current diverts around the heavy current coil dropping to

 

The strength of a solenoid is proportional to the number of turns on the coil x the current through it. 

 

Sorry, I keep revising this post to make it read better.  

Oops Docc beat me 2it

Valeo Starter.pdf

[docc]

Oops Docc beat me 2it

 

 

Sent from my shoe phone!

Yours is the better description.

 

also, what gstallons has said. Best to divide the starter from the battery. Then test the battery fully, before delving into all the intermediate switches, relays, and connections. Even a "new" battery "charged" can be less than perfect.

[Kiwi_Roy]

Here is a typical Guzzi schematic, start from the solenoid coil and trace the current path backwards. through the relay 30-87 to fuse 3, all the way across to the ignition switch through a couple of connectors then back again to get to the battery. what chance have you to get 40 Amps through all that spaghetti?

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/guzzi007/schematics/2000_Bassa.gif

 

Guzzi skimp on the wire gauge, I don't believe they know how much current the solenoid pulls or they would fix the problem.

I recently purchased an 07 Griso, it has a direct connection from the battery to the start relay through just a fuse but then they used a tiny wire (looks about 20 or 22 gauge) from the relay to the solenoid, I calculated it would lose 1.8 Volts. Just increasing the wire size caused the time it takes to engage to drop to 1/4 what it was.

If you are interested at all take a look at the diagram I posted 2 back, the waveform at the bottom "current through 0.25 Ohm coil"

On the Griso this peak dropped from 50 milliseconds to 15 just by going up to an 18 gauge wire

The later Grisos reverted back to running through the ignition switch 

 

Note also the Guzzi schematic doesn't even show the coil that does the lion's share of the work, refer to my Valeo starter sketch, the 0.25 Ohm coil.

 

The relay bbolesaz shows in post No 5 takes care of all the Voltage drop, I'm sure that works like a hot damn but there are other fixes you can do without adding a relay.

 

Of course the best wiring in the world won't help if the magnets come loose.

[gstallons]

I can see rewiring this circuit to a 14 ga. to make a person happy .It will not hurt anything to do this upgrade .Just make it look good when you're finished .  

 As far as the new Griso going through the ign. switch . We have a farm tractor ( Ford 5000 ) that has traditionally eaten the neutral safety switch and was wired this way .All the current to operate the starter solenoid was going the switch / neutral switch , etc . I finally wised up and installed a relay @ the starter solenoid. Problem solved .