docc Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 Counter Steering threads have become the new Oil Thread. Worthy discussion. both. Always something to learn.
Scud Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 Unfortunate accident - but totally avoidable. That is pure operator error, starting with riding in the middle of two-way road that has no divider line. In the slow-mo, you can see that he was not covering the front brake. He goes for the front brake right after the bike is unsettled - which could have been a consequence of locking the rear brake. Too many riders use the rear brake as the primary brake. Counter-steering on a motorcycle is called steering - that's just how bikes turn (along with weight transfer on seat and footpegs). Counter-steering on a motorcycle can be seen when the rear wheel is sliding way out on purpose - as in dirt track racing. 1
Chuck Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 I didn't watch the video on purpose, the same as I don't watch people totally screwing up in airplanes. Why imprint bad decisions? I learned 50 some years ago that I would have to lay er down if I overused the back brake. A few years ago, Todd Egan told me that I was screwing up by getting on the brakes too hard and upsetting the chassis entering a turn. He told me, "Follow me at this distance.. (about 10 feet!!) and don't touch the brakes., you won't need them. Keep the same distance." (Gulp) We proceeded to roar around in the mountains faster than I had ever gone. By far. Let's just say it was a learning experience involving flicking into a turn, letting the motorcycle do it's thing.. it *wants* to be stable if you don't mess with it, adding throttle all the way through the turn.. etc. Wat Scud says above. 3
stewgnu Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 I kind of agree the video’s misleading somewhat. We don’t know if the rider was momentarily distracted or whatever? Anything can happen when you’re riding and there’s can be precious time to correct. I know from personal experience that when things go ‘a bit wrong’ they can do so far quicker than a person can reasonably react (as well as react in the right way). But oh my word that vid gives me the willies..
Chuck Posted January 20, 2018 Posted January 20, 2018 But oh my word that vid gives me the willies.. There ya go. Glad I didn't watch it.
Lucky Phil Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 This video has nothing to do with countersteer, its about the rear brake. Whats triggered this off is jumping on the rear brake in a panic and then the rest is the a consequence of that. You can see the bike step out a fraction from the rear before the supposed wrong countersteer motion at the very beginning in slow mo. After that its all over and the rider is trying to wrestle with the consequences of the initial rear break away, running wide, being on the wrong line to start with panic and a mini tank slapper caused bu the initial action on the back brake and slamming the throttle shut while banked over and the unsettling effect this has caused to the steering. Ciao
LowRyter Posted January 21, 2018 Posted January 21, 2018 Unfortunate accident - but totally avoidable. That is pure operator error, starting with riding in the middle of two-way road that has no divider line. In the slow-mo, you can see that he was not covering the front brake. He goes for the front brake right after the bike is unsettled - which could have been a consequence of locking the rear brake. Too many riders use the rear brake as the primary brake. Counter-steering on a motorcycle is called steering - that's just how bikes turn (along with weight transfer on seat and footpegs). Counter-steering on a motorcycle can be seen when the rear wheel is sliding way out on purpose - as in dirt track racing. Counter-steering on a motorcycle is called steering. Brilliant. 1
GuzziMoto Posted January 22, 2018 Posted January 22, 2018 I was on the Blue Ridge Parkway a few years back, the wife and I were stuck behind a scooter of all things. The guy riding the scooter was really holding us up, but the section we were in did not have any passing opportunities. The reason he was so slow was he was riding without counter steering. That was making his job A LOT harder. But he was doing it. The video here looks to be similar. I did not study it in great depth or detail, but it did appear the guy was trying to turn right to turn right. Maybe he was locking the rear brake, maybe other things were also going on. But he did appear to be trying to turn right by steering to the right. He also looked to be going too fast for his abilities. That had to have hurt.
LowRyter Posted January 22, 2018 Posted January 22, 2018 I agree with Scud. I really don't know how you can turn a bicycle, motorcycle or scooter, unless you are steering it (or counter steering it). The scooter might've been going slow but the rider must've still turned it. Counter steering (aka "steering:") it's a pretty natural concept that somehow got intellectualized to the point of confusion. Any 5 year old on 16" bicycle is counter steering with no video or diagrams. Push right on the bars and go right...... I'll bet going left isn't hard either. I don't think the video makes a point other than the an inexperienced rider bobbled and lost control at the wrong time.
Scud Posted January 22, 2018 Posted January 22, 2018 There's low speed steering, such as U-turns, where you do turn the bars in the direction of travel. Then there's high-speed steering, where you "push right to go right." And there's an inflection point where the bike changes which input works better. For grins, go ride your bike slowly and try to figure out what speed that is. I think it's somewhere around 10-15 mph on a V11. A scooter rider who is used to going slow all the time could get confused on high-speed corners when a different kind of input to the bars is required. Interesting chat we are having about steering in general - but I agree that the video is just highlighting inexperience.
Nick Posted January 22, 2018 Posted January 22, 2018 I didn't watch the video on purpose.......Why imprint bad decisions?
Scud Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 I didn't watch the video on purpose.......Why imprint bad decisions? I don't go out of my way to watch this type of thing. But when I do, I like to "imprint" where I would have made a different decision. There is (almost) ALWAYS a moment where a different decision would have prevented the crash.
footgoose Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 I'll admit it. I have crossed the yellow on a right hander a couple of times. Thankfully with nothing coming at me. Still scary. The video reminds me again to remember, and follow my own rules. Right handers are easier for me for some reason, so I think my mistakes are from over confidence. I tell myself "sometimes when testing your limits, you'll find them".
docc Posted January 23, 2018 Posted January 23, 2018 I tell myself "sometimes when testing your limits, you'll find them". That's well said. I have often tried to implore upon various folks, "If you continually push the envelope, eventually you'll tear through it." 1
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