Countersteer

[LowRyter]

I'll admit it. I have crossed the yellow on a right hander a couple of times. Thankfully with nothing coming at me. Still scary. The video reminds me again to remember, and follow my own rules. Right handers are easier for me for some reason, so I think my mistakes are from over confidence. I tell myself "sometimes when testing your limits, you'll find them".

a couple of times?

 

how about more times than I can remember? 

 

But only once on the Greenie.  Maybe that's why i like it.

[Lucky Phil]

I'll admit it. I have crossed the yellow on a right hander a couple of times. Thankfully with nothing coming at me. Still scary. The video reminds me again to remember, and follow my own rules. Right handers are easier for me for some reason, so I think my mistakes are from over confidence. I tell myself "sometimes when testing your limits, you'll find them".

Thats why track days are such a valuable thing, you can push the limits in relative safety. I think if your not doing track days then you're not serious about improving and maintaining your riding skills.

Its not about setting "lap times" but about improving and learning new techniques and practicing the already known ones without the risk, like really heavy braking and looking through the corner and weighing the pegs. Things that you tend to drift away from riding on the road all the time.

Every first session on the track is the re familiarise session of looking through the corner, using footpeg weight esp on the long fast corners, not trying to ride the bike all through the bars and feeling the force of really heavy braking, together with getting your brain ahead of the bikes speed.

 

Ciao  

[GuzziMoto]

I agree with Scud.  I really don't know how you can turn a bicycle, motorcycle or scooter, unless you are steering it (or counter steering it).  The scooter might've been going slow but the rider must've still turned it. 

 

 

Counter steering (aka "steering:") it's a pretty natural concept that somehow got intellectualized to the point of confusion.  Any 5 year old on 16" bicycle is counter steering with no video or diagrams.

 

Push right on the bars and go right...... I'll bet going left isn't hard either.

 

I don't think the video makes a point other than the an inexperienced rider bobbled and lost control at the wrong time.

We had plenty of time to watch the guy on the scooter. He was, without a doubt, steering the scooter right to turn right and left to turn left. As mentioned, at lower speeds that IS how you steer a two wheeled vehicle. But as speeds ramp up there is a point where counter steering becomes the better way. You can actually counter steer below that point, but it is not required. When the wife and I would do the BattlTrax events (basically solo parking lot racing) we would be in first gear leaned over so far that we would drag hard parts. That required A LOT of counter steering.

Anyway, back to the scooter guy. He was going around the posted speed, but he had to slow down for the corners. The scooter clearly did not want to do what he was making it do, but he was putting a lot of effort into it. He would get to a right hand turn and steer the scooter to the right. It would not lean over, it would stay near perfectly upright around the corner. It was scary to watch. I don't think the guy in the video was doing this for the whole video, but it looks like his reflex reaction when presented with the situation was to turn the handlebars to the right thinking that would turn him to the right. It did not, it actually turned him towards what he was trying to avoid. I am a big fan of testing / pushing your limits, but you should try to do so in a safe environment (the aforementioned BattlTrax was great for that). If you don't test or push your limits, if you don't go beyond your comfort zone, you don't know what to do in a situation that is beyond your comfort zone.

[LowRyter]

 

I'll admit it. I have crossed the yellow on a right hander a couple of times. Thankfully with nothing coming at me. Still scary. The video reminds me again to remember, and follow my own rules. Right handers are easier for me for some reason, so I think my mistakes are from over confidence. I tell myself "sometimes when testing your limits, you'll find them".

Thats why track days are such a valuable thing, you can push the limits in relative safety. I think if your not doing track days then you're not serious about improving and maintaining your riding skills.

Its not about setting "lap times" but about improving and learning new techniques and practicing the already known ones without the risk, like really heavy braking and looking through the corner and weighing the pegs. Things that you tend to drift away from riding on the road all the time.

Every first session on the track is the re familiarise session of looking through the corner, using footpeg weight esp on the long fast corners, not trying to ride the bike all through the bars and feeling the force of really heavy braking, together with getting your brain ahead of the bikes speed.

 

Ciao  

 

 

Funny how a motorcycle track day and car track day are so different.

 

Motorcycles: keep your head up, look as far ahead as possible.  Your bike will go where you look.  

 

Cars: slow to this braking point, gas at this apex, one make mark after another mark, point to point.

[motortouring]

 

 

I'll admit it. I have crossed the yellow on a right hander a couple of times. Thankfully with nothing coming at me. Still scary. The video reminds me again to remember, and follow my own rules. Right handers are easier for me for some reason, so I think my mistakes are from over confidence. I tell myself "sometimes when testing your limits, you'll find them".

Thats why track days are such a valuable thing, you can push the limits in relative safety. I think if your not doing track days then you're not serious about improving and maintaining your riding skills.

Its not about setting "lap times" but about improving and learning new techniques and practicing the already known ones without the risk, like really heavy braking and looking through the corner and weighing the pegs. Things that you tend to drift away from riding on the road all the time.

Every first session on the track is the re familiarise session of looking through the corner, using footpeg weight esp on the long fast corners, not trying to ride the bike all through the bars and feeling the force of really heavy braking, together with getting your brain ahead of the bikes speed.

 

Ciao  

 

 

Funny how a motorcycle track day and car track day are so different.

 

Motorcycles: keep your head up, look as far ahead as possible.  Your bike will go where you look.  

 

Cars: slow to this braking point, gas at this apex, one make mark after another mark, point to point.

 

Hmmm, LowRyter,

 

the difference you are mentioning between Motorcycle and Car, is actually the difference between a known track and an unknown (or two way traffic) road.

Apex clipping-points can improve your motorcycle speed on the track. It helps you to realize where your braking, steering and accelerating should be, and how you divide brake friction and sideward friction during the turn.

It is also interesting for the old Guzzi's with Tonti-frame, braking and lowering RPM's makes the rear-end go down, this reduces the handling, the ideal line on the track is different from a Spine-frame Guzzi.

 

On a normal road you should always see the road ahead, "the vanishing point" is an indication if you cannot see the whole turn.

Interesting VID from the Aussies:

[68C]

Great video. Also handy subtitle lessons in how to speak 'strylien. For 'rider' say 'writer' etc.

[Chuck]

Nicely done..

[BigBlock]

Great video.  That wouldn't be Mick Doohan narrating  that video??

[Lucky Phil]

Great video.  That wouldn't be Mick Doohan narrating  that video??

Yes, that would be Micky D.

 

Ciao

[LowRyter]

video advises braking on the straight and not trail braking.

 

jus' sayin'

 

[docc]

Best description I have ever seen of "trail braking" was written by Lee Parks for Motorcycle Consumer News, April 2017, in his "Total Control" column.

 

http://www.motorcycleconsumernews-digitalmagazine.com/mcnews/april_2017d?pg=44#pg44

[Lucky Phil]

Best description I have ever seen of "trail braking" was written by Lee Parks for Motorcycle Consumer News, April 2017, in his "Total Control" column.

 

http://www.motorcycleconsumernews-digitalmagazine.com/mcnews/april_2017d?pg=44#pg44

There was a lot of theory in that piece most of which applies more to the track where the bike transitions are more extreme, although I dont see how you trail brake into a turn with the throttle still somewhat open. Maybe I read it wrong. No matter whether you're on the track or the road you are either on the brakes or on the throttle not both at the same time, with two exceptions. On the track you can sometimes use the rear brake accellerating out of a corner to stop the bike wheelying, saves you getting out of the throttle to control the wheelie and also dragging the back brake in the turn can help the bike hold a tighter line.

My view is that trail braking is by and large for the race track, if you're using it to any great extent on the road then like Micky D says you should have your speed established by the turn in point by and large. If you're braking all the way to the apex on the road like a racer does on the track then its only a matter of time before it catches up with you.

As for the reference to trail braking reducing fatigue on long rides, well thats la la land for mine.

 

Ciao    

[docc]

I think what I got the most out of Park's discourse is the idea that "trail braking" is the skill of tapering off ("trailing off") the braking on corner entry, not just abruptly releasing it.

 

The business of "feeding" the suspension compression of the braking force smoothly into the cornering force has also helped me keep stable and not upset the Sport.

[LowRyter]

I think what I got the most out of Park's discourse is the idea that "trail braking" is the skill of tapering off ("trailing off") the braking on corner entry, not just abruptly releasing it.

 

The business of "feeding" the suspension compression of the braking force smoothly into the cornering force has also helped me keep stable and not upset the Sport.

 

I think that sums it up.  I think when the writer refers to the use of throttle and brake together that he means during the smooth transition from braking to throttle.   "Smooth" being key.

 

A lot of it does concern track riding, since even in spirited street riding the rider isn't going fast enough to use brakes on very many curves.

 

I think the best way to experiment with it is driving in traffic when you are turning into an intersection or cloverleaf.  Instead of braking in a straight line,  try and compare it by continuing very light decreasing braking until you are on the apex of the turn and begin accelerating.  After a while it might become habit.

 

Funny, I had similar discussion regarding heel-toe brake and throttle on Corvette forum.  Many drivers with manual shift cars have never tried it.  I made the comment that being a motorcyclist a safe rider is always rev matching to downshifts whereth braking or not.

[docc]

When you try dissecting it, it turns out experienced riders have a lot going on, much of it all at once.  I've watched some of you guys (disappear) up in the Appalachians. It's an impressive sight.