Set your V11 CO Fuel Trim!

[Chuck]

Quote

I would like to be able to make a donation in appreciation of that kindness, but I've ripped through the site on the a/m links, and I haven't been able to locate a paypal button.

Just to to "Home" and there is a "donate" tab.

[docc]

28 minutes ago, Chuck said:

Just to to "Home" and there is a "donate" tab.

So, I went looking for Berd's >donat< button as shown below, but am not finding it. I will inquire further.

https://www.von-der-salierburg.de/download/GuzziDiag/

 

[80CX100]

1 hour ago, Chuck said:

Just to to "Home" and there is a "donate" tab.

Hey Chuck,   I've ripped through the site, even manually entered https://www.von-der-salierburg.de/home in the address bar, I'm not seeing it.

I recall seeing it when I first did the download.

I wasn't confident in my ability to download and get the program running, made a mental note to myself that if I got it downloaded and running, I'd return and donate.

It took me a few months, but now when I go back, I can't seem to find it?

Tks

Kelly 

[docc]

30 minutes ago, 80CX100 said:

Hey Chuck,   I've ripped through the site, even manually entered https://www.von-der-salierburg.de/home in the address bar, I'm not seeing it.

I recall seeing it when I first did the download.

I wasn't confident in my ability to download and get the program running, made a mental note to myself that if I got it downloaded and running, I'd return and donate.

It took me a few months, but now when I go back, I can't seem to find it?

Tks

Kelly 

 

[80CX100]

While researching fuel mapping changes I hope to make in the near future, I stumbled across this old post. I noticed there wasn't a visible answer to the question I posed.

I thought it would be a good idea to have a direct email address link here, for anyone wishing to donate to guzzidiag:

guzzidiag@gmail.com

I know I will forget to mention some names, but a sincere thank you to Beard, Meinolf, Paul, Beetle, Pete, Jaap, Docc etc, your knowledge and generosity has helped us guzzi owners immensely.

Thank you

Kelly

[p6x]

On 11/24/2018 at 9:52 AM, al_roethlisberger said:

What are the running symptoms of the CO being set too low?

 

The problem I've had with the bike since new was a "cough" at around 3-4k RPM once warmed up and cruising.  Sometimes moving the cruising RPM around will stop it for a bit, but it returns.

I am experiencing the same.

I have perfect idle. No fluctuation at all.

My 04 Le Mans was immobilized since the beginning of June this year, waiting on a bar end weight.

Prior to that, the bike was running properly.

Yesterday, I took the bike out around 90 degF, felt temp 99 degF because of the humidity, and when keeping steady rpm to respect 45 mph, I got some sputter. Not permanently, but recurrent. If I open the throttle, it goes away.

Prior to my June cold storage, I had never had any kind of sputter when maintaining steady RPM. However the air was cooler.

I have read the FAQ topics:

-TPS Setup and TBT

-Decent Tune up

-V11 ECU diagnostics and reprogramming

and this one: Set you V11 CO Fuel trim

Could I get away with simply changing the CO fuel trim by trial and error?

My main problem, is that I cannot make sense of having the injection sputter when I keep the same rpm constant. All the parameters fed to the ECU remain the same; so there should not be any reason for it to get confused. Or is my assumption wrong?

I am aware that quick changes in RPM are usually the source of sputter, as the ECU may lag a bit in adjusting to sudden revolution increase. But on a steady input, why would the fuel regulation miss?

The sputter I experience is always around 3000 rpm, or below. It does not seem to happen once you go beyond 3k.

[docc]

If any one, or a combination, of the tuning parameters are off it could contribute to this behavior. It is very common that the factory CO Fuel Trim setting is in the very negative range. That is, of course, a specific and important step in the Decent Tune-up (zero the CO Fuel Trim).

This behavior is also common to a bad TPS. I have never been able to diagnose the TPS looking at millivoltage, but have found bad ones by watching the resistance across the TPS while slowly opening and closing the throttle looking for skips, jumps, or open readings.

That said, the V11 is really not happy in these very high temperatures or at those low RPM. The combination can be particularly aggravating. So, simply riding in a lower gear to let the motor rev more freely may be all that is needed . . .

[Lucky Phil]

22 minutes ago, p6x said:

I am experiencing the same.

I have perfect idle. No fluctuation at all.

My 04 Le Mans was immobilized since the beginning of June this year, waiting on a bar end weight.

Prior to that, the bike was running properly.

Yesterday, I took the bike out around 90 degF, felt temp 99 degF because of the humidity, and when keeping steady rpm to respect 45 mph, I got some sputter. Not permanently, but recurrent. If I open the throttle, it goes away.

Prior to my June cold storage, I had never had any kind of sputter when maintaining steady RPM. However the air was cooler.

I have read the FAQ topics:

-TPS Setup and TBT

-Decent Tune up

-V11 ECU diagnostics and reprogramming

and this one: Set you V11 CO Fuel trim

Could I get away with simply changing the CO fuel trim by trial and error?

My main problem, is that I cannot make sense of having the injection sputter when I keep the same rpm constant. All the parameters fed to the ECU remain the same; so there should not be any reason for it to get confused. Or is my assumption wrong?

I am aware that quick changes in RPM are usually the source of sputter, as the ECU may lag a bit in adjusting to sudden revolution increase. But on a steady input, why would the fuel regulation miss?

The sputter I experience is always around 3000 rpm, or below. It does not seem to happen once you go beyond 3k.

It's a question that has been around as long as the bike and experience by many including myself. I don't know of anyone having an answer to it. Some suggested wear in the cam chain affecting the ignition pickup but mine still did it after I upgraded to gears. My experience is the same as your and it appears to come and go with changes in OAT. If I still had the 2 valve engine in the bike I would be experimenting with fuel mapping via Tunerpro in the affected area and the engine temp break point maybe. The Daytona engine doesn't have the issue.

Ciao

 

[Lucky Phil]

I just went and looked at a std v11 2000 fuel and ignition maps and one interesting thing is around that RPM and probable throttle opening there is a large step in the ignition advance. So 2700-3200 rpm and 4.2-5.2 deg throttle which is kind of in the area of issue. The advance change is interpolated between these cells of course and maybe I'm wrong but possibly this area of change combined with engine temp and OAT play a part. If I still had the 2 valve fitted I could have a play but of course when you want it to hickup it never does.

Ciao 

[p6x]

21 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

I just went and looked at a std v11 2000 fuel and ignition maps and one interesting thing is around that RPM and probable throttle opening there is a large step in the ignition advance. So 2700-3200 rpm and 4.2-5.2 deg throttle which is kind of in the area of issue. The advance change is interpolated between these cells of course and maybe I'm wrong but possibly this area of change combined with engine temp and OAT play a part. If I still had the 2 valve fitted I could have a play but of course when you want it to hickup it never does.

Ciao 

The jump is quite obvious.

I have the tendency to always "ride on the torque", and keep the engine revs as low as possible. It is very possible that I am in the "grey" zone where there aren't as many points.

Tomorrow I will try to keep the rpm above 3k, just to see if there is any improvement.

I think the explanation is just that. There is too much of a gap in the mapping to keep the engine happy. And the interpolation is possibly linear, which does not really work.

When you combine Air Temperature, Air Humidity, barometric pressure we get into the dew point zone? this would be consistent with not having the engine missing at lower temperatures and humidity. It almost feels like the ECU algorithm was never designed to cope with those atmospheric conditions.

 

[p6x]

53 minutes ago, docc said:

That said, the V11 is really not happy in these very high temperatures or at those low RPM. The combination can be particularly aggravating. So, simply riding in a lower gear to let the motor rev more freely may be all that is needed . . .

It makes sense actually. Its not really how I ride, but I have to keep in mind its an air cooled engine low speed and low revs, high ambient air temperature and high humidity at sea level.

I think I am going to run some tests, including with lower temperatures, to confirm the behavior.

[docc]

1 hour ago, p6x said:

It makes sense actually. Its not really how I ride, but I have to keep in mind its an air cooled engine low speed and low revs, high ambient air temperature and high humidity at sea level.

I think I am going to run some tests, including with lower temperatures, to confirm the behavior.

Also, good to realize the V11 has a fairly aggressive camshaft  profile and only two valves for the rather large bore (rather inefficient at lower revs) combined with a light (for a Guzzi!) flywheel that does not damp the power pulses well at the lower (below 4000 rpm) revs.  Also, the tachometers can be optimistic and an indicated 4,000 rpm might actually be as low as 3,500 (so that an indicated 3,000 might be 2,500-2800). Very unhappy territory for the V11.

As in Texas, this time of year in the US "deep south" is very hot and humid. I always revel in the coming of autumn and when I feel the combined atmospheric conditions must match those in Mandello del Lario - the Sport knows this in its core and runs like a Labrador Retriever between the truck and the lake!

 

[p6x]

10 minutes ago, docc said:

Also, good to realize the V11 has a fairly aggressive camshaft  profile and only two valves for the rather large bore (rather inefficient at lower revs) combined with a light (for a Guzzi!) flywheel that does not damp the power pulses well at the lower (below 4000 rpm) revs.  Also, the tachometers can be optimistic and an indicated 4,000 rpm might actually be as low as 3,500 (so that an indicated 3,000 might be 2,500-2800). Very unhappy territory for the V11.

As in Texas, this time of year in the US "deep south" is very hot and humid. I always revel the coming of autumn and when I feel the combined atmospheric conditions must match those in Mandello del Lario - the Sport knows this in its core and runs like a Labrador Retriever between the truck and the lake!

 

the valve number corroborates Lucky Phil's statement that he does not have the issue with the four valved Daytona.

When it comes to design, I am pretty sure none of the European motorcycle companies simulated extreme weather conditions to confirm their criteria.

Ducati has a lot of experience in fuel injection control. Maybe we should get them involved for a replacement ECU on our V11 Guzzi? https://www.ducatienergia.com/media/products/140128-1710-efi.pdf

If you look at the last page of their presentation, they include an air temperature sensor, and an absolute air pressure sensor.

 

[Lucky Phil]

32 minutes ago, p6x said:

the valve number corroborates Lucky Phil's statement that he does not have the issue with the four valved Daytona.

When it comes to design, I am pretty sure none of the European motorcycle companies simulated extreme weather conditions to confirm their criteria.

Ducati has a lot of experience in fuel injection control. Maybe we should get them involved for a replacement ECU on our V11 Guzzi? https://www.ducatienergia.com/media/products/140128-1710-efi.pdf

If you look at the last page of their presentation, they include an air temperature sensor, and an absolute air pressure sensor.

 

You might be very surprised at the lack of science put into the mapping and how loose the process is. One particular late model Guzzi when you look into the software it's obvious they started with a Ducati map because it's notated in the ID details. They didn't even bother to change it as only people digging deep into the software would find it. So you go to WM and want a map for your latest model and they just dig out maps from another customer with a similar engine design and capacity and start there. Fair enough but you do wonder sometimes how interested they really get in making it run really nicely. I also had a couple of Triumphs T595's back in the late 90's and they ran the French Sagem system. The factory released plenty of software updates to correct things like random stalling when stopping at the lights and other stuff. I thought it must be terribly hard to rectify this stuff then my friend installed a Motec unit on a customers bike and had the Triumph running and carburetting absolutely perfectly after about 30 min on the dyno. So an injection system manufacturer and a motorcycle manufacturer couldn't do what a talented guy in his own business could achieve in 30min. Sometimes the big wheels turn so slowly they just grind to a stop.

Ciao

   

[docc]

21 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

You might be very surprised at the lack of science put into the mapping and how loose the process is.  . . . but you do wonder sometimes how interested they really get in making it run really nicely.  . . .

Ciao

   

Oh, but this is what we live for, yes? No question that a dedicated enthusiast, "with a little help from his friends", can make these V11 run very much better. Even "really nicely" . . .