Engine comparison

[Dadparent]

Hello Guys,

 

The virus of the V11 is under my skin so I have another question. When I'm looking for parts for my V11 I saw that they are very expensive in some cases or not deliverable anymore. But secondhand is OK in most cases, so the question is from what kind of Guzzis have the same:

-  engine block, crankcase , cilinders and piston 

- camshaft, cilinderhead

- gearbox

- transmission.

 

An exempel is the speedometer unit in the gearbox. What other Guzzi has the same. I know the list of replace units from other brands on this forum, but I could not find a Guzzi comparison

 

Futhermore are there possibilities to mount a big bore or a 4 valve ? Especially from a other Guzzi model? On my V65 I mounted a 4 valve Lario-head and it's running much better. But I can't find 1-2-3 something here in the forum, so I think this is much more difficult .

 

Thanks 

[LowRyter]

I would guess that the bottom end is the same for all Guzzi 1100cc series engines.

 

But the remainder, cam, heads, 6 speed transmission and rear drive are unique to spine frame bikes.   

 

Some of the experts here will get the particulars.  

[stewgnu]

You could look out for a Daytona instead..?

Oo imagine opening the garage to a Nero Corsa lounging next to a blood red Daytona. I just did that Homer dribble thing

[Tomchri]

or you could get in touch with Dynotec.de   147hp is possible,,, that woud have put an even bigger  o m face.

Cheers tom.

[GuzziMoto]

You can fit a 4 valve per cylinder motor from a Daytona or Centauro (the Centauro would be the one to use, the Daytona is far too valuable), but you can't easily fit just the heads as you could with the V65. The drive for the valve train is too different compared to the V65 where the Lario used the same push rod set up.

There are a fair number of cross parts, but often the parts are only close and not the same. Like while you may be able to fit a speedo drive from a different model the gear ratio might be off and thus the speedo would read wrong.

Besides, there are more V11's out there than most other Guzzi's, I can't believe you would have less trouble finding parts for, say, a Centuaro or Daytona.

 

I have considered putting a Centauro motor in my Griso, Not sure if / when I will be able to pull it off. But I am pulling the motor and trans as I have to replace the clutch. While it is that far apart it seems like a good time to do the swap. I was sold on the Griso when the first prototypes were shown. The original had the Centauro motor anyway. As I have a Daytona, I must say I find that motor to be more enjoyable than the CARC 2 valve motor. Maybe if I had an 8 valve Griso, but those had more problems with their design than the old 4 valve motor from the Daytona and Centauro. So in hindsight I am glad I don't have one of them. Anyway, back on track.

Yes, there is a fair bit of parts swappability. But often what seems like the same part on two different Guzzi's is really almost the same part. Sometimes that can be good, like when I put a Cali transmission in my Daytona. Other times it is bad, like when the parts work but either not as well or not quite right.

[Lucky Phil]

I would say the 4Valve Grisso motor with the roller lifters is a far better unit than the Daytona or Centauro engines which have less than ideal valve geometery and high wear on everthing head related really. Guides, rocker pins, lifters, rocker feet, cracking at the guide bores, the list goes on.Top end engine parts are now almost non existent as well but if you can find them you will need to sell your first born to afford them. Maybe not so dear after all:)

 

Ciao

[GuzziMoto]

I would say the 4Valve Grisso motor with the roller lifters is a far better unit than the Daytona or Centauro engines which have less than ideal valve geometery and high wear on everthing head related really. Guides, rocker pins, lifters, rocker feet, cracking at the guide bores, the list goes on.Top end engine parts are now almost non existent as well but if you can find them you will need to sell your first born to afford them. Maybe not so dear after all:)

 

Ciao

The Daytona / Centauro motors are the ones with "high wear"? Are you sure? Pretty sure the 8 valve Griso motor design was so F'd up they had to retro-fit roller lifters as the valve train was trashing itself. It seems they did not get the original design right. Perhaps the roller version will last, we don't know yet. But I would not call the 8 valve motor a better designed motor.

But for me, the main thing that puts the Daytona / Centauro motor ahead of the 8 valve motor is I prefer the feel, the raw character, of the old 4 valve motor. The new 8 valve motor is too boring for me.

[Lucky Phil]

 

I would say the 4Valve Grisso motor with the roller lifters is a far better unit than the Daytona or Centauro engines which have less than ideal valve geometery and high wear on everthing head related really. Guides, rocker pins, lifters, rocker feet, cracking at the guide bores, the list goes on.Top end engine parts are now almost non existent as well but if you can find them you will need to sell your first born to afford them. Maybe not so dear after all:)

 

Ciao

The Daytona / Centauro motors are the ones with "high wear"? Are you sure? Pretty sure the 8 valve Griso motor design was so F'd up they had to retro-fit roller lifters as the valve train was trashing itself. It seems they did not get the original design right. Perhaps the roller version will last, we don't know yet. But I would not call the 8 valve motor a better designed motor.

But for me, the main thing that puts the Daytona / Centauro motor ahead of the 8 valve motor is I prefer the feel, the raw character, of the old 4 valve motor. The new 8 valve motor is too boring for me.

 

The 8 valve motor had a history of lifter failure due to using DLC coated lifters which wasnt appropriate for the application and oil "mayo" that used to effect engines esp in cool climates. There was also a cam shimming mod. Once they got those items sorted with the roller conversions and included into production they were a great engine from all reports. Oil cooling to the heads another benifit.

I have a Daytona/Centauro engine apart in my workshop for rebuilding plus a spare set of cases and 6 cylinder heads. I've never seen such bad guide wear as the original heads displayed. Guide wear on several were 0.030" or 0.80mm!!!! thats not stem wobble thats actual guide to stem clearance. All the lifters are gone on the faces along with the rocker feet where they ride on the lifters, and serious valve seat recession on at least 2 seats which will require replacement of the seats. 

The other second hand heads aren't much better. I investigated the valve geometery and its not good at all which is part of the reason for the heavy guide wear. So the fix will be new gas nitrided valves along with K-line of the guides although the really bad ones will need guide replacement and then K-lining, new lifters, cams have escaped damage, new seats on the bad head plus all the usual. May convert to the later MGS roller bearings on the cams, dont know. The valve coating and K-lining should help the guide wear esp since I dont do a lot of klms. parts are either non existant or maga expensive if you can get them. I'm embarrased to say this engine has been awaiting the heads rebuilt for quite some time now as the rest of it is ready to go back together, re nikasiled bores and new pistons, refurbished carrillo rods ( done by Carrillo) all new bearings, Caruso steel cam and oil pump drive gears and German oil pump.Must get onto this:) 

The Dayton/Centauro engines are beautiful looking engines but as I said a bit fragile and wear prone in std form even before hotting up. The 8 valve motors have been around in their final roller form for about 5 or 6 years now and by all acounts bullitproof. Pete Roper would be in a better position to comment but I think I can garantee he would back me up on this.

 

Ciao

[GuzziMoto]

The 8 valve motors also get fairly poor fuel mileage and do not really make a lot of power for their size. Mostly they seem to have a high amount of fuel consumed per horsepower made. Just not a very efficient motor. Combustion chamber design and cam specs likely to blame, but that is just a guess. If they had made the 8 valve motor back around 1990 it would have been a good motor design, minus the issue of the valve train destroying itself. But in todays day and age it does not stand out.

 

As to the reasons it eats it valve train, the coating does not seem to be the root cause as other motors use those coatings and don't eat their valve trains. Also, it is possible that the "mayo in the oil" issue may play a part, but it seems unlikely as the failures became a near 100% certainty. More likely they got the spring rates wrong, as flat tappet cams require the correct spring rate, and since they are swapping to roller tappets without having to change the spring rate, it seems that the spring rate may be too stiff for happy flat tappets. You generally need stiffer springs for roller tappets.

 

Anyway, if you like the 8 valve Griso motor and want to put it into a spine frame it would be tricky to do but not impossible. The main hurdle is the alternator is probably in the way of the frame. So you would need to address that.

[Dadparent]

Very interesting to read all your infos, thanks. I think it's clear better tuning the V2 than take a V4. Another question are the gearratio's. I came from a Ducati St4. with (too) long ratios but the Guzzi is very short. In the shortest time you are in 6th gear and at higher speeds it running a lot of rev's. Are there possibilities here? Gearbox other model, other set of gears, different rack and pignon?

 

 

 

 

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[pete roper]

The 8 valve motors also get fairly poor fuel mileage and do not really make a lot of power for their size. Mostly they seem to have a high amount of fuel consumed per horsepower made. Just not a very efficient motor. Combustion chamber design and cam specs likely to blame, but that is just a guess. If they had made the 8 valve motor back around 1990 it would have been a good motor design, minus the issue of the valve train destroying itself. But in todays day and age it does not stand out.

 

As to the reasons it eats it valve train, the coating does not seem to be the root cause as other motors use those coatings and don't eat their valve trains. Also, it is possible that the "mayo in the oil" issue may play a part, but it seems unlikely as the failures became a near 100% certainty. More likely they got the spring rates wrong, as flat tappet cams require the correct spring rate, and since they are swapping to roller tappets without having to change the spring rate, it seems that the spring rate may be too stiff for happy flat tappets. You generally need stiffer springs for roller tappets.

 

Anyway, if you like the 8 valve Griso motor and want to put it into a spine frame it would be tricky to do but not impossible. The main hurdle is the alternator is probably in the way of the frame. So you would need to address that.

The flat tappet failures on the Nuovo 8V are I believe spring related, at least that is what I believe to be the root cause and over the last five or six years I've put a lot of time and research into it.

 

Having stopped counting the number of rollerisations we've done once we went past a hundred I can assure you I've had a lot of failed componentry to examine and the pattern of failure is always near identical but the time it takes to occur can vary drastically. At the end of the day though I have not seen one motor go over 25,000 Km without damage, the problem is that unless you know where to look you won't know it's eating itself until it's way, way too late.

 

If anyone wants the full explanation I can write it up again and post it up, I've done it piecemeal before but if you'd like the whole thing from the early history to when I drew my conclusions I can do that. For the last twelve years the CARC bikes and particularly the 8V's have been my muse. I really think they are superb motorcycles and the 8V engine, while not perfect, is certainly a tremendously enjoyable power plant and once the 'Elephant in the corner' of the flat tappet fiasco has been addressed are stone axe reliable. Mapped and tuned correctly they will produce an HONEST 100RWHP and over 70 ft/lbs of torque. Our 1400 motor makes little more in the way of HP but brings mid eighties ft/lbs of torque to the table basically from 3,000 right through to the rev limiter which was lowered from the 9,000 that was being used with the 1200 to 8,250 in respect for the heavier pistons. Note that our figures are almost universally lower than other 'Tuners' claim. This is because we aren't fantasists who put their 'Thumb on the scales'.

 

I'd also like to take this opportunity to apologise to the people who have recently, (And not so recently!) PM'd me about sloppage sheets. I haven't been dropping in to V11.com much and have missed stuff but I've been tied up with what has become our 'Core business' which is 8V's and CARC bikes. Things have recently taken a huge turn for the worse though as my younger employee who was 'Learning the ropes' of Guzzi from me and was what was my 'Succession Plan' for the business recently had a serious crash on his RS125 'Prila and is currently in hospital after being airlifted to Sydney with a broken back. Unfortunately the prognosis is far from rosy. I have my own health issues too, most noticeably fairly serious and rapid onset rheumatoid arthritis which means it's getting really difficult for me to actually work on the tools for any length of time. As such I feel that the days of my business may be numbered but if there are still people after sloppage sheets I'm going to put in an order tomorrow morning for another ten which I'll keep 'On the shelf'. Best way to contact me though is probably via email motomodadotroperatgmaildotcom (you should be able to work that out!

 

Anyway. Take care out there in V11 land!

 

Pete

[footgoose]

Pete,

 

Thanks for opining on these motors. I've fantasized about a Griso for awhile but MUST have the SE (spoked) wheels. I love bottom line explanations. Your coverage of various Guzzi componentry over the years, and on various sites, has earned you my deep respect on whatever the hell it is you're talking about. That said, I for one, don't need a full explanation. I would read it, but much would be wasted on me. One of the great things I've learned in life is, once you fully respect someones opinion, well.... just listen.

 

Sorry to hear about the apprentice. I hope he has a full and fast recovery. Youth has it advantages.  Hopefully that will help him through it.

[Lucky Phil]

 

The 8 valve motors also get fairly poor fuel mileage and do not really make a lot of power for their size. Mostly they seem to have a high amount of fuel consumed per horsepower made. Just not a very efficient motor. Combustion chamber design and cam specs likely to blame, but that is just a guess. If they had made the 8 valve motor back around 1990 it would have been a good motor design, minus the issue of the valve train destroying itself. But in todays day and age it does not stand out.

 

As to the reasons it eats it valve train, the coating does not seem to be the root cause as other motors use those coatings and don't eat their valve trains. Also, it is possible that the "mayo in the oil" issue may play a part, but it seems unlikely as the failures became a near 100% certainty. More likely they got the spring rates wrong, as flat tappet cams require the correct spring rate, and since they are swapping to roller tappets without having to change the spring rate, it seems that the spring rate may be too stiff for happy flat tappets. You generally need stiffer springs for roller tappets.

 

Anyway, if you like the 8 valve Griso motor and want to put it into a spine frame it would be tricky to do but not impossible. The main hurdle is the alternator is probably in the way of the frame. So you would need to address that.

The flat tappet failures on the Nuovo 8V are I believe spring related, at least that is what I believe to be the root cause and over the last five or six years I've put a lot of time and research into it.

 

Having stopped counting the number of rollerisations we've done once we went past a hundred I can assure you I've had a lot of failed componentry to examine and the pattern of failure is always near identical but the time it takes to occur can vary drastically. At the end of the day though I have not seen one motor go over 25,000 Km without damage, the problem is that unless you know where to look you won't know it's eating itself until it's way, way too late.

 

If anyone wants the full explanation I can write it up again and post it up, I've done it piecemeal before but if you'd like the whole thing from the early history to when I drew my conclusions I can do that. For the last twelve years the CARC bikes and particularly the 8V's have been my muse. I really think they are superb motorcycles and the 8V engine, while not perfect, is certainly a tremendously enjoyable power plant and once the 'Elephant in the corner' of the flat tappet fiasco has been addressed are stone axe reliable. Mapped and tuned correctly they will produce an HONEST 100RWHP and over 70 ft/lbs of torque. Our 1400 motor makes little more in the way of HP but brings mid eighties ft/lbs of torque to the table basically from 3,000 right through to the rev limiter which was lowered from the 9,000 that was being used with the 1200 to 8,250 in respect for the heavier pistons. Note that our figures are almost universally lower than other 'Tuners' claim. This is because we aren't fantasists who put their 'Thumb on the scales'.

 

I'd also like to take this opportunity to apologise to the people who have recently, (And not so recently!) PM'd me about sloppage sheets. I haven't been dropping in to V11.com much and have missed stuff but I've been tied up with what has become our 'Core business' which is 8V's and CARC bikes. Things have recently taken a huge turn for the worse though as my younger employee who was 'Learning the ropes' of Guzzi from me and was what was my 'Succession Plan' for the business recently had a serious crash on his RS125 'Prila and is currently in hospital after being airlifted to Sydney with a broken back. Unfortunately the prognosis is far from rosy. I have my own health issues too, most noticeably fairly serious and rapid onset rheumatoid arthritis which means it's getting really difficult for me to actually work on the tools for any length of time. As such I feel that the days of my business may be numbered but if there are still people after sloppage sheets I'm going to put in an order tomorrow morning for another ten which I'll keep 'On the shelf'. Best way to contact me though is probably via email motomodadotroperatgmaildotcom (you should be able to work that out!

 

Anyway. Take care out there in V11 land!

 

Pete

 

Hey Pete, sorry to hear about you're young employee, hope he make a full or decent recovery.

My wife has just been recently diagnosed with your affliction and its been a difficult year or so for her as someone that was at the gym 3 times a week and running half marathons trying to figure what was wrong. All that activity stopped for a year, but she is now diagnosed as of a few months ago and on the mainstream drugs prescribed and is returning back to normality. Hang in there and be patient, positive results will come.

 

Ciao 

[pete roper]

Michael isn't that young, he's in his forties with grown kids and has been qualified for twenty years. He's a damn fine mechanic too which makes his loss so much more devastating.

 

If anyone is looking for a Griso his 8V is on the block. It's had everything done to it and is owned by a 'Neat Freak'. You won't find a better one anywhere.