Red (short) Frame vs. Black (long) Frame

[Scud]

Swapping shocks today, which gives an opportunity to answer Docc's frequently asked questions regarding differences in the frames.

 

Here are two exposed frames. I just picked up a tape measure. What will it reveal?

 

[docc]

Let the squeamish avert their eyes!

[docc]

The question remains: do the frames have different actual lengths or was the longer wheelbase accomplished another way (triple clamps)?

[footgoose]

and what does swapping shocks reveal.... hmmmm? a favorite emerging?

[Scud]

Here is the SHORT red frame, measuring 59cm from shock tower to center of steering head.

 

 

And here is LONG black frame, measuring 61cm at the same spots.

 

 

Note how the oil breather is centered at about 53cm on both frames. The extra frame length is between the breather and the steering stem.

[footgoose]

wheelbase for 2000 is 1471mm -- 2004 listed as 1490 with 25deg rake. could find no rake spec for 2000

 

that's about the 2cm difference, provided there's no rake changes

 

Do you perceive any handling differences, now you've had a proper ride?

[docc]

No apparent rake changes.

 

All V11 are 25º . . .

 

Scud's frames: 610mm - 590mm = 20mm.

 

Published wheelbases: 1490  - 1471 =  19mm.

 

Looks like the change is actually all in the frame length.

 

Scud! Well done!

[czakky]

They just stretched the chrome-oly 2x4" under the tank.

 

Thanks for clarification Scud.

[Scud]

As others have noted, the red frame steers a bit quicker, but I didn't feel like it sacrificed stability. I assume the quicker steering is due to three factors:

1. Shorter wheelbase
2. Narrower rear tire
3. No steering damper. The Bitubo damper that came with the greenie had a noticeable sticking point, so I removed it.

Other differences between frames for the record:

 

Front subframe - the black front subframe is beefier and has more cross bracing. I assume that this would be interchangable with a red frame; the distance between the two frame-mounting points is the same.

 

Lower (center) subframe - as noted elsewhere, the black lower subframe has additional cross-bracing, including a significant one to the LH porkchop (which makes clutch slave cylinder access extremely difficult on the black-frame bikes). It also has arms that go around the transmission to the engine. The black ones cannot be bolted directly on the red-frame bikes, because the engine case would need to have holes drilled in it - and there is a small difference in the LH porkchop mount area of the spine frame where the cross brace attaches.

 

Rear subframe - the black frame has tabs to mount the rear fender/light assembly. The painted tail sections of the red-frame bikes are heavier and mount differently than the tails on the black-frames.

 

Shock reservoir bracket - I noticed that these are different between the two frame types. It's because the bracket mounts over a brace-point on the black frame bikes, while there is no brace attached behind the porkchop on the red frame bikes.

 

Transmission Brace - The red frames have a bracket welded underneath, just above the place where the engine and transmission cases join. It seems that some early models had a brace there, but they stopped installing the braces at some point. It also seems that without this brace, the engine and transmission may move too much, putting pressure on the whole system, and could result in a crack in the rear of the transmission case.

 

Edit to include trans brace from discussion below.

[Scud]

and what does swapping shocks reveal.... hmmmm? a favorite emerging?

 

So yeah, I think I'm going to let the Red LeMans go  , and hang out with the Greenie for a while  . Details later.

[LowRyter]

Tim,  did you ever get the transmission brace?

[Scud]

No - but I'm going to try again later today. And that brings up another difference between the red and black frames, which I'll re-state here to try to get all the differences documented in one place.

 

The red frames have a bracket welded underneath, just above the place where the engine and transmission cases join. It seems that some early models had a brace there, but they stopped installing the braces at some point. It also seems that without this brace, the engine and transmission may move too much, putting pressure on the whole system, and could result in a crack in the rear of the transmission case.

[docc]

On 9/17/2017 at 9:52 PM, Scud said:

Transmission Brace - The red frames have a bracket welded underneath, just above the place where the engine and transmission cases join. It seems that some early models had a brace there, but they stopped installing the braces at some point. It also seems that without this brace, the engine and transmission may move too much, putting pressure on the whole system, and could result in a crack in the rear of the transmission case.

 

Edit to include trans brace from discussion below.

The gearbox brace was a feature on the carbed Sport1100. No idea if we've confirmed that it is still fitted to the injected 1100Sport-i (??)

 

AFIK, no V11 was ever fitted with the mid-frame brace.

[edit: @luhbo, in Germany, reported a very early V11 Sport with the mid-frame brace.]

 

(For that matter, were they fitted to the Daytona, the Centauro?)

[Scud]

The parts diagrams for a 2000 V11 Sport show the bracket. So at least we can assume that it was supposed to be installed.

[docc]

Yeah, I see that on Page 24: "Plate"  01 20 2830

 

I wonder if these plates were actually ever fitted to any SpineFrame with fuel injection?