V11 Engine Hot Rodding advice

[Rox Lemans]

17 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

Pete and Todd do not get along anymore. I assume it hit the fan between them.

That said, I also have a bike using a map from Todd ('07 Griso 1100) and it runs well. It isn't for sale, either.

I like Pete, and respect his knowledge. But I also deal with Todd and I have not yet had a bad experience with Todd. I don't agree with everything Todd says or does, but the same could be said about Pete. But, in the end, everyone has to make their decisions based on their experiences.

If you are using GuzziDiag, as Pete mentioned, you should be able to find a map that will work well. There is a fairly large community of people using that software. If you aren't the sort to do that sort of thing yourself (like me) you can pay someone like Todd to do it for you. I did that with the Griso (paid Todd) and I did that with the V11 (found a local DynoJet / PowerCommander guy, he is long gone). For me, I deal with technology at work, and so when I get home I really don't want to get into something like GuzziDiag. Maybe one day I will have to bite the bullet, but for now all my Guzzi's (except the Lario) have been flashed or tuned and run great. The Lario runs pretty well, but it could use better jetting or even better carbs. I just don't think I need to worry about it on a vintage bike like that. Perfecting that bikes tuning would only encourage me to ride it harder and then it would probably blow up....

One thing I learned through the years. Forum drama is f***ing stupid. But Guzzi drama is REALLY f***ing stupid. Get over it. Bury the torquewrench and put your big boy pants on (not gonna drop names but you know who you are).

Folks that like these bikes find ways to make them better and the stuff works. Pick a spot to throw your money at and have at it. But the drama and the sh!t talk is just stupid. It's like watching the movie Grumpy Old Men but with Guzzis. Yep, pretty lame. Sucks the fun out of this forum thing. 

[pete roper]

How many grand are you out of pocket? How many bikes have you seen #@$&@#@ by incompetence?

No worries. I give a @#!#$# what shit people do to their bikes but I'm certainly not going to encourage it.

Out.

[ScuRoo]

This topic is just too good to leave on a bit of a sour note...!

I’ve been back revisiting all the great intake port info contained in this V11 engine discussion - unfortunately it got a little knocked off topic by old wounds but - it’s really worthwhile here for our V11’s taking note of Bill’s suggestions particularly from 6mins on...

If Bill’s few interventions netted some 90 odd HP on a street 850 squarehead - one wonders what may be realised performance wise from similar minimalist 7-8mm floor raised D-porting on our large V11 ports?

An 850cc sq/head outrunning a BMW R1100S is actually very impressive!! R1100S specs quote 0-60 MPH @ 3.86 sec & Top speed 139 MPH.

Pressureangle’s own work to raise port roof & fill floor is on the money - but maybe he reworked it back to rounded or did it end up flat too?

D-porting stock V11 ports hmmm 🤔

 

[footgoose]

Agreed. Will watch with popcorn 🍿 

[Lucky Phil]

2 hours ago, ScuRoo said:

This topic is just too good to leave on a bit of a sour note...!

I’ve been back revisiting all the great intake port info contained in this V11 engine discussion - unfortunately it got a little knocked off topic by old wounds but - it’s really worthwhile here for our V11’s taking note of Bill’s suggestions particularly from 6mins on...

If Bill’s few interventions netted some 90 odd HP on a street 850 squarehead - one wonders what may be realised performance wise from similar minimalist 7-8mm floor raised D-porting on our large V11 ports?

An 850cc sq/head outrunning a BMW R1100S is actually very impressive!! R1100S specs quote 0-60 MPH @ 3.86 sec & Top speed 139 MPH.

Pressureangle’s own work to raise port roof & fill floor is on the money - but maybe he reworked it back to rounded or did it end up flat too?

D-porting stock V11 ports hmmm 🤔

 

At 7:30 it turned into bench racing session with this guy said his bike would beat this other bike. Why do people seem impressed when someone applies 50 year old tuning technology to a 50 year old engine. They have been using D shaped ports forever on big 2 valve engines for years with large included valve angles (pretty much all of them) nothing amazing there. As for 0.002" way ahead of their time big end clearances well. There hasn't been any changes to engine bearing or piston clearances in 50 years I can think of. I can put any engine in the last 50 years together with .0015 to .002" big end clearance and .002 on the main bearings and it will work fine. What has changed is the ability of manufacturers to more consistently produce those tolerances and avoid selective assembly. Rod length, dwell times at TDC piston acceleration rates over rod length and stroke, it's all well known engineering stuff, no magic, nothing amazing or new.

Ciao     

[pete roper]

The 'Rule of thumb' for bearing clearance is one thou for every inch of journal diameter. If you're building a commuter engine that is just going to potter you make the clearance towards the smaller end of tolerance, for something that is going to be thrashed mercilessly and produce as much power as possible you go for the larger end of the clearance envelope. The oil may not have as strong a wedge but the greater oil throughput will cool the bearing better.

Mr. Finnegan has an excellent reputation but I agree with Phil, it's all  'Old School' stuff. I find myself frustrated by people who still believe that Phil Irving's 'Tuning for Speed' is the ad-ultra of tuning theory. It's an interesting book, but it was written seventy years ago and oddly enough, things have changed. 

The old Guzzi 2 Valve is a 1950's design so yes, it will respond to 1950's tuning methods, but there's nothing 'New' in any of this stuff.

[Lucky Phil]

14 hours ago, pete roper said:

The 'Rule of thumb' for bearing clearance is one thou for every inch of journal diameter. If you're building a commuter engine that is just going to potter you make the clearance towards the smaller end of tolerance, for something that is going to be thrashed mercilessly and produce as much power as possible you go for the larger end of the clearance envelope. The oil may not have as strong a wedge but the greater oil throughput will cool the bearing better.

Mr. Finnegan has an excellent reputation but I agree with Phil, it's all  'Old School' stuff. I find myself frustrated by people who still believe that Phil Irving's 'Tuning for Speed' is the ad-ultra of tuning theory. It's an interesting book, but it was written seventy years ago and oddly enough, things have changed. 

The old Guzzi 2 Valve is a 1950's design so yes, it will respond to 1950's tuning methods, but there's nothing 'New' in any of this stuff.

Funny you mention "Tuning for speed" Pete. About 35 years ago at a classic meeting, may have even been the old Amaroo park a guy had set up a display of his head porting expertise he was touting to passers by. I stopped for a look and enquired as to why he was polishing inlet ports to a mirror finish which was a 20 years out of date concept even back then. "Tuning for speed" he said, you need to read it. Knowledge builds, techniques and practices move forward but some get stuck in history. I'm more amazed people bother to make video's about this stuff like it's some sort of revelation and now I'm old I can reveal all my secrets, lol. I'd rather hear about his life experiences in motorcycling and tuning.

Ciao 

[ScuRoo]

On 2/16/2021 at 6:44 AM, Lucky Phil said:

Knowledge builds, techniques and practices move forward but some get stuck in history.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/268481854418/permalink/10157102947139419/
🍿 

On 2/15/2021 at 3:00 PM, footgoose said:

Agreed. Will watch with popcorn 🍿 

I too was looking forward to a bit more popcorn 🍿 

After all there are many on this forum who are interested in exploring various V11 performance nuggets.

Anyhoo...

Q: Has anybody dual plugged their V11’s & found the (NVH) harshness level has noticeably increased?

[GuzziMoto]

2 hours ago, ScuRoo said:

https://m.facebook.com/groups/268481854418/permalink/10157102947139419/
🍿

I too was looking forward to a bit more popcorn 🍿 

After all there are many on this forum who are interested in exploring various V11 performance nuggets.

Anyhoo...

Q: Has anybody dual plugged their V11’s & found the (NVH) harshness level has noticeably increased?

No, but my Griso is dual plugged from the factory and is fine.

What did you do with ignition timing to compensate for the dual plugs? We did that with our Ducati 750's, and retarded ignition timing to compensate for the dual plugs. With the Ducati's we did not notice any increase in NVH with dual plugs, but they are racebikes so we don't really look for it.

[po18guy]

As to full-on race bikes the (in)famous Raceco Guzzi that gave the Britten fits had about all there is left in the old gal. The fact that the bike worked as well as it did is amazing., even though it threatened to throw the rider off each time he cut the throttle. 

[ScuRoo]

12 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

What did you do with ignition timing to compensate for the dual plugs? We did that with our Ducati 750's, and retarded ignition timing to compensate for the dual plugs. With the Ducati's we did not notice any increase in NVH with dual plugs, but they are racebikes so we don't really look for it.

I’ve actually been fascinated by the research & development in passive prechamber ignition & its benefits.

[ScuRoo]

 

...the limits on upload require separate posts...

[ScuRoo]

 

 

...which I’ve been experimenting with on my own bikes. 
There’s power gains to be had absolutely - but the increased NVH harshness levels put me off for now. I don’t get how to knock back the ECU timing to compensate which might help - so with my V11 I’ll return again to this later when able to do so. Not willing to access more power at the expense of more harshness.

However, with my V50 Monza the prechamber ignition gives it much more noticeable verve & impetus with just a nice corresponding thrum thru the handlebars. The Monza feels like it’s kinda more awake & willing to rev to redline.

[ScuRoo]

Maserati explains well between 2.50 & 5.00 the benefits of passive prechamber ignition - & also lightly touches on the increased NVH which they’ve overcome by adding a normal spark ignition near the cylinder wall.
 

I’ve actually been pondering on a couple of paths - so I’m going to have another crack with my V11 - but with the accelerated combustion chamber flame speed its power delivery to date is a very raw feeling in its intensity.

Wouldn’t be a pain if purely racing - but on the street not so relaxing.

Experimenting is not always a smooth path... where you get it right first time!

 

 

 

[GuzziMoto]

I would expect anything that speeds up burn rate would require the ignition timing to be retarded. Dual plugs speed up how long it takes to burn the air/fuel mixture, so you run less ignition advance. This should fall into the same category, a faster burn means less ignition advance. Some of the harshness may simply be from the fuel burning faster and developing pressure before the piston is past TDC. That would be more likely at lower rpms.

It reminds me of Honda using an exhaust valve and free radicals that it traps in the combustion chamber to self ignite a two stroke engine. Kinda halfway between a gasoline engine and a diesel engine.

https://www.motorcycle.com/manufacturer/quick-take-honda-exp2-15170.html