V11 Daytona project

[Lucky Phil]

2 hours ago, czakky said:

That my friend is love! No towel throwing here.

No, still working on it, I'm getting more patient as I get older. I'm visiting my friend in a month for a social visit and to get the welding done. He lives a thousand miles away these days so a visit and a few days catching up will be nice.

I know whats going to happen when I pull the engine, I'll want to repaint the frame and pork chops as well. One thing turns into another. Probably end up a full resto. More patient but less sensable 

Ciao  

[Lucky Phil]

So I had along with my wife and dog a very pleasant catch up with my mate on his farm over the last week where we among other things, worked on the gearbox mount repair. He is extremely experienced in these type of crankcase weld repairs and modifications over many years. He reported that the cases weren't nice to weld due to probably a high content of zinc in the alloy very much the same as late model Ducati bevel cases. He started off in the mill by machining down the square lug section with a ball end cutter to the level of the case to give himself some space to get the torch in and a nice radius to weld up to. We then locally heated the case with a torch to 190 deg C. As soon as the welding was completed I held the case and he used a 1/4 inch arbour in a rivet gun and peened the entire weld while it was still soft. This stress relieves the area and reduces or eliminated any distortion to the gearbox end plate face and also shaped the welded area to a degree. He then used the die grinder and blended the welded area to the original lug. When I got home I did some further minor detail work with the die grinder as I had a very small cutter and then used some emery to further smooth it off. It did of course look a bit nicer with just the die grinder finish and if I weren't going to paint it and leave it in its natural finish I would bead blast it and it would be almost undetectable.

We checked with a machinists flat and the end plate face was totally undistorted but interestingly I had checked it on my granite surface plate before we started and found in the area from the cracked mount around to the fastener below the oil filler port  you could geta .004" feeler gauge in so the rear plate face wasn't true to start with. Pete put it on the mill and levelled it up with a .0035" cut. The whole process took a couple of hours with me doing nothing but assisting with heating the case and holding it during the peening process. I guess it would be a $125 US repair at an estimate with the exchange rate as it currently is.

We both kind of feel that the cracks origin is probably more to do with the casting and cooling than anything else. Some will have a tiny intergranular crack develop during the cooling process due to the large local change in cross section and will then go on to develop a full blown leaking crack after an undetermined amount of heat/stress cycles. This case wasn't leaking and had no visible crack so it may have gone on for years without issue or the crack may never have propagated.

So cleaning painting and assembly to go. Might need to consult Pete Roper for a borrow of a few gearbox tools.

L/H mount radiused and smoothed.

This lug interface with the main body of the gearbox housing was also not radiused so I undercut the lug end and formed a radius.

The final repair

 

Ciao

[Lucky Phil]

Another surprise. I pulled the old input shaft seal today and noted the input shaft fwd bearing not seated in the casing to the tune of 1.5mm short. You can see the evidence of this in the inner race. Should be fairly easy to rectify. Its not a major issue other than the bearing outer race is not fully supported in the case. Makes you wonder whos putting these things together sometimes. Might be the same guy that lubricates CARC swingarm bearings. He's moved onwards and upwards.

That's around 1.5 mm short of the shoulder.

Evidence of the bearing not running central on the race.

 

Ciao

[Lucky Phil]

Gearbox painted at last just need to oven cure the paint then assembly.

Ciao

[Lucky Phil]

Well some things just seem to fight you all the way for some reason,maybe its just me. I've finally made some progress on the gearbox after a few issues along the way. I assembled the mid case with all the gear shafts onto the main housing and bolted it down all sealed and with me feeling rather good about things, that is until I tried to turn the upper secondary shaft (1st,3rd and 5th from memory) It would turn but you could feel the drag of no end clearance. With a ball bearing on the aft end and a roller on the front it was obvious there was something amiss on the roller. The thought of the 0.0035" I machined off the rear face after the weld repair to flatten out the case which was like this from the factory was on my mind as was the not correctly seated input shaft roller I found. So before the sealant had set I pulled it apart again looking for the problem. Nothing jumped out at me so I drifted the front roller bearing into its recess just to be sure. I suspected it moved a fraction because the baffle thingy behind it tightened a little but I wasn't confident. It was tight enough to warrant sorting but it would have got enough clearance when the gearbox warmed up. Anyway seating the fwd roller fixed the issue to my relief.

So with the mid case bolted down and sealed it was onto fitting the input shaft and secondary shaft ring nuts. These have a surprising amount of torque 90 n/m on the main and 80 n/m on the smaller secondary shafts. I managed to get the main nut torqued up which is hard when you're holding the gearbox shaft with the tool and applying the torque but when I went onto the secondary shafts I stripped the first ring nut. No idea why. I applied some lube to the lock washer face and some loctite to the threads and used my "good" torque wrench but there you go.

Anyway I gave Pete Roper a hoy as he had lent me his tooling and he kindly sent me a new nut and washers in the post.......stout chap Pete. After some research and thinking I decided to back the torque on these down a touch. 80 n/m just feels too much and considering that are the same 17x1mm thread as a Ducati 1098 cam pulley ring nut which uses 64-78 n/m I ended up going with 70 n/m  and some loctite. 

So that all worked out and the rear cover fitted up nicely with its new seal. I have of course fitted my Chuck shift return spring to the shifter mechanism and the shift assembly has previously felt the warmth of my fettling so it was just the spring upgrade to worry about. 

Once again thanks to Pete Roper for the tooling and spares, I owe him a few drinks obviously. All that's really left if to fit the clutch slave,torque up the front ring nut and install the shifter cover. Not sure if I'll bolt it up to the engine unit yet or wait until fitment to the bike.

So here it is at present, assembled for the most part with all titanium fasteners. Surprisingly there are a lot of fasteners that go into the wet area that aren't sealed in any way. The manual doesn't call for anything but I have  applied sealant to all these fasteners.

     

This is what you need to do to torque up the secondary shafts when you dont have any friends.The secondaries impart a rotating torque to not only the input shaft but also the gearbox case and you cant hold both and apply 70nm hence you need friends to hold the casing. So I pinned it to the bench with the input shaft holding tool against the vice and 2 8mm bolts throught the starter mount holes into holes I drilled into my old much loved bench. Don't like drilling holes in the bench but it adds to the patina I guess.   

T

Time to start considering installation to the chassis I guess.

Ciao

[czakky]

Guzzi torque specs! That’s frustrating, well done.

[docc]

14 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

This is what you need to do to torque up the secondary shafts when you don't have any friends.The secondaries impart a rotating torque to not only the input shaft but also the gearbox case and you cant hold both and apply 70nm hence you need friends to hold the casing. So I pinned it to the bench with the input shaft holding tool against the vice and 2 8mm bolts through the starter mount holes into holes I drilled into my old much loved bench. Don't like drilling holes in the bench but it adds to the patina I guess.   

T

 

You gots plenty of admiring friends, bud. It's just that our arms aren't long enough to put hands on your (fine) bench!

Welldone on this build, Sir!    Thanks, dearly, for sharing it with us! 

[Lucky Phil]

Gearbox is done and now just trying to rectify the nil ops neutral switch. The switch is outrageously expensive and all it needs is the contacts cleaned up. Holding it all back together is the challenge. Loctite 635 will hopefully be the answer.

 

Ciao

[gstallons]

Hmmm , how did it get apart ?

I worked on mine with contact cleaner and working it about 15-30 mins. 

[Lucky Phil]

2 hours ago, gstallons said:

Hmmm , how did it get apart ?

I worked on mine with contact cleaner and working it about 15-30 mins. 

I machined off the crimp. I dont know how contact cleaner worked for you as I tried that as well. After I disassembled it I saw how that wouldn't work for mine as there's no way for the cleaner to get to the switch cavity. The contacts in mine were just tarnished and it needed cleaning up with wet and dry. There was no evidence of oil or contact cleaner in the switch cavity so I assume there is a seal in the plunger section.

Ciao   

[docc]

The kind of reassembly I would trust to a steel reinforced epoxy like JB Weld . . .

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, docc said:

The kind of reassembly I would trust to a steel reinforced epoxy like JB Weld . . .

JB might be an overkill docc, even without bonding of any kind with the switch assy put back together it would operate without coming apart the spring pressures are so small. might need to be careful putting the connector on and off,time will tell I guess.

Ciao

[Chuck]

FWIW, the Lario uses a front brake light switch that is.. uh.. unreliable at best. Finally put it in the lathe and cut it apart. Fixed the problem, and soft soldered it back together with my antique (naturally) big hunker soldering iron. It's been soldiering on for several years, now.

[docc]

On 10/11/2019 at 3:00 AM, Lucky Phil said:

Time to start considering installation to the chassis I guess.

Ciao

Now, this is going to be quite something!

[luhbo]

On 10/15/2019 at 1:30 PM, Lucky Phil said:

I machined off the crimp. I dont know how contact cleaner worked for you as I tried that as well. After I disassembled it I saw how that wouldn't work for mine as there's no way for the cleaner to get to the switch cavity. The contacts in mine were just tarnished and it needed cleaning up with wet and dry. There was no evidence of oil or contact cleaner in the switch cavity so I assume there is a seal in the plunger section.

Ciao   

That's the standard procedure also for dead oil pressure switches. Same system, same problems. I'm using Uhu-Plus for this, a standard 2K Epoxy glue. Part of the problem are the small venting holes in combination with power cleaners like S100 or the like.