MGS01 , No Spray & No Spark

[madbunny]

https://youtu.be/PMR4jUTGTic

 

Hi Guzzi mates.

my MGS suddenly death, just had 64km odo. 

 

I tried almost way for ignition start.

and attach movie file about this situation.

no spark & no spray. 

 

 

 

 

I was tested about...

 

*change new battery 

*change new SEN8I3 angle sensor

*change new spark plug

*change coil & wire

*check fuse 

*check alternator & regulator (both exclude for engine start) 

*check ecu relay point, diode check (without relay, directly wire jump)  

*check ground wire condition 

*check 12V wire condition & voltage down 

*run starter motor independent battery powered 

*SEN8I3 signal check to Osilloscope

*Bank angle sensor check (also check pcb & chip burn) 

 

 

 

 

Just spark plug it in, and it won't ignite.

the plug hole not ignite either when a Insulator(plastic, rubber also) is inserted.

 

I think when the engine turns faster(low registance), the signal reacts.

It appears to be blocking the ignition by resistance. 

 

But the speed of the starter motor seems to be enough.

Something to have a strong restriction, but I don't know why.

 

 

Is there anything I haven't done?

If you have time, I'd like you to think about it together please.

 

[MartyNZ]

From your video, we can see good spark when the engine cranks without compression, but then with the plugs in, there is no spark delivered from the coils. There are two changes to the engine from cranking with the plugs in or out.

 

1. The engine turns over slower with the plugs in.

2. The battery voltage is lower while the starter is working hard to crank with the plugs in.

 

For effect 1, perhaps your SEN813 sensor is out of adjustment. Also called phase/revolution sensor, crank position sensor, or timing sensor. The workshop manual will give a specific clearance for the sensor from the phonic (toothed) wheel. If the gap is too great, the sensor voltage pulses will be low, below the threshold set in the ECU, so the ECU will not allow a start. This clearance is reduced by removing shims.

I know of an '02 California that ran fine for 4 hour trip, then refused to start until the sensor clearance was reset.

.

This picture attached is for a V11. There should be something similar for your bike.

Shimming V11 RPM Sensor.pdf

 

For effect 2, consider ground connections. I know you checked the ground wire, but the ECU is sensitive to battery voltage. A poor connection at the battery, the gearbox, the frame, or pins 23 & 24 on the ECU could interfere with it's function. I'm assuming that you have a 15M ECU from the picture. The change in starter load between "plugs in" and "plugs out" will be matched by a change in voltage sensed by the ECU, and resistance in any connection can make a difference.

 

If you can't fix it, and you want to get rid of it, just ship the whole bike to me. It would look good in my garage.

[swooshdave]

Fuel, air, spark.

 

It looks like you have spark. Are the plugs wet when you pull them?

[docc]

Fuel, air, spark.

 

It looks like you have spark. Are the plugs wet when you pull them?

It appears the spark stops when full engine compression slows the cranking speed.

[swooshdave]

I've seen spark plugs fail to spark under compression, I can't remember why.

[docc]

madbunny, would you post pictures of the fuse block and the relay set so we can think of how much this wiring is like the V11?

[gstallons]

Verify ( w/key on ) one side of the ignition coil has 12v. and one side of the injector has 12v.  The crank sensor ( I think ) will have 5v on one terminal .

You can wire a noid light into the crank sensor to verify signal output when cranking. It will be easier to remove spark plugs to make the engine crank easier . 

[madbunny]

From your video, we can see good spark when the engine cranks without compression, but then with the plugs in, there is no spark delivered from the coils. There are two changes to the engine from cranking with the plugs in or out.

 

1. The engine turns over slower with the plugs in.

2. The battery voltage is lower while the starter is working hard to crank with the plugs in.

 

For effect 1, perhaps your SEN813 sensor is out of adjustment. Also called phase/revolution sensor, crank position sensor, or timing sensor. The workshop manual will give a specific clearance for the sensor from the phonic (toothed) wheel. If the gap is too great, the sensor voltage pulses will be low, below the threshold set in the ECU, so the ECU will not allow a start. This clearance is reduced by removing shims.

I know of an '02 California that ran fine for 4 hour trip, then refused to start until the sensor clearance was reset.

.

This picture attached is for a V11. There should be something similar for your bike.

 

 

For effect 2, consider ground connections. I know you checked the ground wire, but the ECU is sensitive to battery voltage. A poor connection at the battery, the gearbox, the frame, or pins 23 & 24 on the ECU could interfere with it's function. I'm assuming that you have a 15M ECU from the picture. The change in starter load between "plugs in" and "plugs out" will be matched by a change in voltage sensed by the ECU, and resistance in any connection can make a difference.

 

If you can't fix it, and you want to get rid of it, just ship the whole bike to me. It would look good in my garage.

 

thanks Marty.

but i already tried to air gap clearance.

I have 5 each size shim.

 

also tested ignition test by guzzidiag (actor -> ignition L or R)

there's no problem about ground wiring.

[madbunny]

I've seen spark plugs fail to spark under compression, I can't remember why.

hi dave.

 

spark plugs can't wet

because spark & injector not work both.

 

if pull out spark plug,

then injectors works fine.

[madbunny]

madbunny, would you post pictures of the fuse block and the relay set so we can think of how much this wiring is like the V11?

 

hi docc

 

this is MGS-01 wiring diagram.

It is a really simple, because there are no lights or accesory.

 

[madbunny]

Verify ( w/key on ) one side of the ignition coil has 12v. and one side of the injector has 12v.  The crank sensor ( I think ) will have 5v on one terminal .

You can wire a noid light into the crank sensor to verify signal output when cranking. It will be easier to remove spark plugs to make the engine crank easier . 

 

hi gstallons.

 

I switch the 3 testers.

illuminated tester(pen type), osilloscope, hioki multitester.

 

yes, coil connector has 2 wire.

12v(B+) , other line is came from ECU.

 

If connect two lines and test them, light turns on.

when without spark plug only......

[MartyNZ]

 

... perhaps your SEN813 sensor is out of adjustment. 

thanks Marty.

but i already tried to air gap clearance.

I have 5 each size shim.

Can I suggest checking the gap by putting a bead of modeling clay or plasticine on the tip of the sensor, installing it when a tooth is lined up centred in the hole, removing and measuring the thickness. I know that it is easy to get that gap wrong, with shims and o-ring in the way.

[Chuck]

Relay 46 and fuse F2 power the injectors and ignition. Apparently, the ecu is ok because you have spark without compression. Can it be as simple as a weak battery? Load test it. If that's not it, I would certainly suspect 46 and F2. Maybe as simple as corroded relay base or fuse connections? Corrosion at any place in that system, including ignition switch?

Getcha a can of DeOxit, go over *everything* electrical, put new plugs in it. If that's not what it is, it's over my head.. good luck.

[LowRyter]

what about a weak regulator?  (spit balling it)

[swooshdave]

what about a weak regulator? (spit balling it)

If battery charge is normal then the regulator shouldn’t have an impact, at least for starting.