LED blinkers L+R blinking at the same time

[JKV11]

if this is the wirediagram of a V11, can anybody explane why if i have blinkers running lights (so they need no relais), and i replace the controle light with a LED (1,3 M Ohm), all blinkers (L+R) start blinking when ever i activate L of R.

(the relais is replaced by a wire).

Thanks for al idea’s. 

[docc]

Hi, JKV11!

 

Yes, the resistance of the LED are not great enough for the flasher to function correctly. You may have results changing to an electronic "flasher" unit designed for the task. Others have added resistors or diodes to the circuit.

I found that only using the rear signal units, only, lets my Sport function normally while retaining the front incandescent bulbs.

[MartyNZ]

Docc is right (again). You need an electronic flasher [21] which will flash the indicator lights irrespective of current draw from the lamps. I did this, and found another problem. 

The instrument panel [6] turn signal light is connected to both left & right indicator light circuits, so if you have all four indicators fitted with LED lamps, all four lamps will flash when you indicate left or right turn. That [6] indicator provides a path to ground via the side opposite the side you selected. The fix is to replace the little incandescent bulb in the [6] panel with a facing pair of LEDS, with a common ground.

Until I follow my own advice, I have only LEDs in the front indicators, same as Docc's bike.

Note that I left out a wire in the diagram below. The red wire should go from the connector to the RH indicator lights.

[JKV11]

When i mesure the resistance, the resistance is both ways 1,3 M Ohm. But i cheched today there’ s a different between the way i stik ik the led.

1 the one way if i turn left both blinkend are working oké

if i thun the ather way, both te blinkers are working.

If i turn the led controle light;

The one way if i turnway  both blinkend are working oké 

if i thun the ather way, both te blinkers are working both again.

 

 

[Kiwi_Roy]

I'm not sure if you have solved this yet or not.

Its caused by LED blinkers that draw next to no current and an idiot light that draws as much

I came across this sketch I had done for another owner

 

The type 194 lamp reference is to my favourite LED replacement for the Spine frame and EV idiot lights. (I can't recall if I still needed the diodes)

I have some pictures of that if anyone is interested, because LEDs last forever I throw away the sockets and glue lamps in place.

BTW all 12 Volt LEDs have a resistor or current limiter in series, we just don't bother showing it. Headlights for instance only need about 9 Volts, the rest is gravy, it gets no brighter.

 

[JKV11]

Hello, t have changed the blinkers, because they were not visible enough. I now have standard LED blinkers and a variable flasher relay.

As long as i don't insert a control light, everything works well. As soon as i insert the indicator light the usual problems start. I wonder if i replace the indicator light by two LEDs and i connect the anode with the wires and take the cathodes together and connect them to the mass via a resistance, will this work?

 

I miss my indicator light

[Weegie]

docc, MartyNZ & Kiwi Roy (our resident electrical consultant) have nailed it

I'm not sure about your running light statement and fail to understand it. On my computer the link to the wiring diagram is also broken.

It's due to the rather Heath Robinson (if you know who he is) circuit that Guzzi used linking the circuit for the warning bulb, it's quite clever and works if you don't change anything but if you modify it, then strange things happen

Everything will work with the warning light removed as you state.

If you want to use LED indicators then you'll need to replace the flasher relay with an electronic unit or resistors. Resistors are horrible and a bit hit and miss, besides the flasher unit will probably cost less than 4 resistors (which may or may not work, at least on first try)

If you want the warning light to work as well as the electronic relay you'll need to modify the warning light circuit too.

You can try the back to back LED trick, I've never tried that but it should work for the warning light.

What I did when replacing the incandescent bulbs with LEDs on both a Sport and a Daytona (the wiring circuits are the same for the V11) was to use Roy's 3rd sketch. You disconnect both wires going to the warning light. Then solder in Diodes the sliver ring on the Diode should point toward the warning light (or away from the exisitng wire).

Join then the 2 diodes, or the wires leading from the diodes, together and connect them to the non blocking side of the LED warning light (easy to test that, try one side if it doesn't work try the other) Make a direct connection to earth on the other side of the LED.

Roy's 3rd diagram shows it in diagram form which is easier to understand.

This just came up on a similar post https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/22088-turn-indicators-aspire-to-4way-flashers/

My LED dash on the Daytona (I should have cleaned it up a little before making the video)

 

[Kiwi_Roy]

On 3/17/2019 at 5:32 AM, JKV11 said:

 

if this is the wirediagram of a V11, can anybody explane why if i have blinkers running lights (so they need no relais), and i replace the controle light with a LED (1,3 M Ohm), all blinkers (L+R) start blinking when ever i activate L of R.

(the relais is replaced by a wire).

Thanks for al idea’s. 

I just read through the original post again, I missed the point previously.

When I had a VII I decided to replace the idiot lights with LEDs so I ordered some and stuck them in, turned the key on and a fuse blew.

On investigation the contact on the new lamps shorted out the lamp holders, if you look at the lamps side by side you will see that the contact wires go at right angles to each other. s\So with the  LED you are connecting both sides together.

I like to use type 194 lamps to replace the lamp holders, they glue into the shroud then just solder the wires directly onto the lamps, they should outlast the bike.

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/miniature-and-subminiature-bulbs/194-led-bulb-1-led-miniature-wedge-retrofit-car/197/

Lampholders are available for these but they don't work well in the confines of the dash, just solder the wires directly to the lamps

A pair of seizers are a big help when soldering the wires on.

[JKV11]

On 9/20/2020 at 12:03 AM, Kiwi_Roy said:

I like to use type 194 lamps to replace the lamp holders, they glue into the shroud then just solder the wires directly onto the lamps, they should outlast the bike.

https://www.superbrightleds.com/moreinfo/miniature-and-subminiature-bulbs/194-led-bulb-1-led-miniature-wedge-retrofit-car/197/

Lampholders are available for these but they don't work well in the confines of the dash, just solder the wires directly to the lamps

Hello Roy,

can you tell me or the LED light have a high resistance? If the resistance is at least as high as the original light it will work without any additional diodes or resistance.

Kind regards!

[MartyNZ]

On 9/22/2020 at 6:45 PM, JKV11 said:

Hello Roy,

can you tell me or the LED light have a high resistance? If the resistance is at least as high as the original light it will work without any additional diodes or resistance.

Kind regards!

It is difficult to measure resistance of LED lamps & incandescent bulbs. Incandescent bulb resistance depends on temperature, and will be very low if it is not glowing. LEDs generally have infinite resistance in reverse connection, and will only begin to allow you to measure forward resistance above a certain voltage. That's why some multimeters have a dedicated diode test function.

 The electrical difference between LED lamps & incandescent bulbs is mostly about current draw. LEDs have other advantages too, but lets stick to current.

If you hook 12 volts to a 25 watt incandescent bulb then it draws about 2 amps. The actual current depends on filament temperature; hotter temp = higher resistance = lower current.

If you hook 12 volts to a 6 watt LED Lamp, then it draws about 0.5 amps.

This lower current makes the original flasher unit flash at the wrong speed, so a common work-around is to add a resistor in parallel with the LED so the combined resistor and LED draw 2 amps. Some aftermarket LEDs are marked "error free" and have the parallel resistor inside. This avoids an error from modern vehicles which detect the low current and interpret this as a blown bulb.

The parallel resistor shouldn't be confused with a voltage dropping series resistor which is hooked in line with the LED and is hidden inside the lamp socket. LEDs usually run on 2 or 3 volts, and 12 v would destroy them, so the series resistor is hooked in line to drop 9 or 10 volts.

So, if I found extra parallel resistors on my bike, I'd remove them after fitting an electronic flasher.

[Kiwi_Roy]

You can sort of figure out the series resistor value of an LED. A small one like an idiot light draws about 10 milliamps (you can measure it), the LED has ~ 3 Volts across it so you need to drop 9 Volts.

9 / 0.01 = 900 Ohms, that would be the minimum in reality it could be much higher like 1-10 K Ohms, you really need to read the specs to figure it out.

Back to the topic

When you put the "controle light" in the socket, does it light at all? If not its shorting the socket out and all four flashers are getting power, this happened to me also, as a temporary fix I snipped one side off the wire contacts.

If the lamps on one side are working correctly but the other side are flashing dimly its because the current the "controle light" draws is enough to make them work, then you need to change the wiring a little as per my sketch No 3, The back to back diodes prevent the signal from going to the opposite side.

Any small diodes will do they only carry a few milliamps the other side of the "controle light" goes to chassis.

 

I found the old file under the topic Main Switch Fuse Blows

Sorry about the poor resolution, I took a picture of the screen because it was messed up by photo bucket.

 

[Kiwi_Roy]

On 9/21/2020 at 11:45 PM, JKV11 said:

Hello Roy,

can you tell me or the LED light have a high resistance? If the resistance is at least as high as the original light it will work without any additional diodes or resistance.

Kind regards!

I didn't answer that, yes LEDs usually have a resistance of several thousand Ohms but what's confusing is they also have a forward bias Voltage of around 3 Volts so you can't really measure the resistance with a normal multimeter.

The original incandescent lamp as fitted to the dash resistance is quite low when it's cold, around 100 Ohms from memory.

Some LED blinker lights operate with a very tiny current, I recently helped a Griso owner who's lamps were glowing with the key turned off, the lamps were operating on 40 microamps, that's 0.00004 Amps. On the Griso they use a tiny current to alarm the dash if the normal incandescent lamp burns out, he had fitted LED lamps in the existing lamp holders. 

Diodes are the only answer when you want to use a single dash lamp with LED signal lamps, even the tiny current an LED dash lamp draws is enough to operate some LED signal lamps, only the Voltage from the active side gets to the lamp, the path is blocked from the lamp to the other side by the other diode.

BTW if you add diodes you will still be able to use the original dash lamp or an LED

We never did establish if it was the leakage current through the lamp or your new LEDs are actually shorting the lamp holders out.

[Kiwi_Roy]

On 9/9/2020 at 4:49 AM, JKV11 said:

Hello, t have changed the blinkers, because they were not visible enough. I now have standard LED blinkers and a variable flasher relay.

As long as i don't insert a control light, everything works well. As soon as i insert the indicator light the usual problems start. I wonder if i replace the indicator light by two LEDs and i connect the anode with the wires and take the cathodes together and connect them to the mass via a resistance, will this work?

 

I miss my indicator light

Yes that would work but not so nice as adding two small diodes

LEDs are diodes as well, thats why it only works properly for one direction, if you flip it around it works for the other direction

Add 2 diodes and run it to chassis and the current is always going the right direction through the dash LED, it cannot get to the wrong side lamps because it's blocked by the other diode.