Non starter

[czakky]

1 hour ago, docc said:

How does the voltage series look (key off after a few hours, lights on for two or three minutes, cranking, idle, and at some rpm)?

Might be time to get a look at your starter magnets?

i’ll check it out. Might be a while though.

[gstallons]

AS far as the noise with the KOEO , remove the relay that powers the fuel pump. Did it stops the buzz ? If not , keep removing them one at time to see if it stops. 

[Kiwi_Roy]

Finally I am able to get back on here,

For some reason I am unable to get on from work

That's ok though, today is my last day there.

 

I'm not convinced it's the battery, run a wire from the starter solenoid and touch it on the battery +, if it cranks like that it's something else.

I guess this message must have shown up the other day but I couldn't see it, either that or I am loosing the plot.

Hot wiring the starter will eliminate the possibility of bad wiring or a relay from the mix, just the starter, solenoid and battery

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Kiwi_Roy
Just because I am happy to be on board

[czakky]

Always appreciate your opinion Roy! 

[czakky]

I didn’t have a lot of time yesterday. I tried to start her at 12.78v again after sitting a couple days. Nothing. I’m going to go back through the wiring. I’m not too suspicious of the starter because it does spin fine with a freshly charged battery. To my mind it’s either resistance at a connection somewhere, the solenoid, or my battery.

Cleaning the ignition switch first, then connection at the battery and the main ground. 

[docc]

Caig DeOxit® is our friend!

[Kiwi_Roy]

As I said earlier if you touch a wire from the battery + to the spade connector that bypasses the start circuit Ignition switch and some connectors, this is how the starter should work, not thru a bunch of spaghetti wiring. You have probably seen me rant on about how the solenoid draws over 40 Amps

i know of a couple of VIIs that burnt up because the main ground was connected to the bolt of the seat lock rather than a gearbox bolt.

The seat lock bolt worked loose so the starter return current found its way back to the battery via the ground wire from the Voltage Regulator to battery negative.

If you connect your meter from battery Negative (I mean the actual battery post not the lug) to a grounded bolt on the engine a bad main ground will show up as  Voltage drop while cranking, I would expect to see less than 0.5 Volts

I think Docc's 2000 may be wired with the Start Relay/30 wired direct from a fuse (not switched)

Notice how the starter relay/30 terminal on this earlier bike is powered from an always live fuse 5, these early bikes never suffer Startus Interuptus but if you look down at the starter solenoid like all other Guzzi schematics its drawn wrong, one coil (the Grunt coil) is missing, the one that draws 40 Amps to pull in the solenoid. Fuse 5 can easily provide 50 Amps for a split second, the solenoid will slam the gear into mesh (in about 15 milliseconds) and the starter will spin.

 

Now look at this one from a few years later, Luigi has completely changed the way the start relay is powered, terminal 30 is now fed from the Ignition Switch and a lot of spaghetti wires with several plug in connectors for good measure, he had another attempt at drawing the starter solenoid but again completely missed the Grunt coil. The supply to the starter relay is now seriously compromised, it will sluggishly draw the starter into mesh if it's a good day. Once engaged it will spin ok. On a bad day the Voltage drop will be too much, it won't engage and you get the dreaded click, it might also blow the 15 Amp F4

 

If you click on this drawing it will be easier to read.

BTW, most of the modern Guzzis are compromised in the same way, works ok while everything is nice and new but as the connections start to deteriorate and the switch picks up some resistance the coil inrush current drops off until the grunt coil isn't able to do its job. MPH has made a small fortune selling kits to correct the situation. Both Veleo and Bosh starters have a Grunt Coil, I think the modern starters are a different brand but they will also.

BTW, I recently purchased an 07 Griso, I made the starter solenoid operate 3 x as fast as Luigi had it just by increasing  the wire size from relay to solenoid.

If the factory would only draw the starter properly Startus Interrupts would soon be extinct LOL

 

Sorry I added this just to show the Grunt Coil in the solenoid ( 0.25 Ohm)

[czakky]

One more easy start and I’m calling this solved. After a week the battery was plenty strong to start her. 

[docc]

14 hours ago, czakky said:

One more easy start and I’m calling this solved. After a week the battery was plenty strong to start her. 

I looked back through for the solution, but not sure (?)

[czakky]

My T3 project has been giving me fits so I haven’t had time to get to the v11. I want one more good start after she’s been sitting. But I feel like Docc you are probably right....again. The battery just needed a good heavy amp charge. 

[Kiwi_Roy]

Any battery can put out 12 Volts no load, its how much will it put out under load is the thing. You can take it and have it load tested but the starter is a pretty good indication, probably over 100 Amps

Fix your meter to the battery terminals and take a reading while it's grunting to get it over the hump of compression. Which reminds me I've been meaning to check  my old loop for weeks it has a Power Patrol SLA1116 of 18 AH rating, I thought it was on the way out. First off I connected my Voltmeter to the charging leads with a couple of jumper leads, it read 12.9 Volts. I lifted the plug caps off so it wouldn't start and ground away for about a minute in several second bursts it would drop down to 10.9 while cranking.

I was shocked half an hour later when it was still reading 11.8 and holding 10 while cranking, occasionally compression would catch it off guard and the Volts would pull right down to 7 for a second but it would come back to 10 once it got spinning. All this time the headlight was burning.

My test wasn't very scientific, I should have measured the current at least but I didn't expect it to last more than a few spins of the motor but at least I have established a point of 10 Volts while cranking and have a healthy respect for this battery. Of course you don't want the Voltage to drop much under 10 or you may not have enough for a reliable spark, this old girl doesn't mind.

If I had measured the Amperage I would have seen it shoot right up while the motor was stalled and come down once the motor started to spin, motors also act as generators as they spin they generate Voltage in the opposite direction (commonly known as Back EMF (back Electro-Motive Force)) which subtracts from the forward Voltage to bring the current down.

[czakky]

My voltage dropped below 8 while cranking even after re-conditioning this battery a couple times. It would start, but then after sitting it just barely cranks.

New odyssey delivered this week. Hopefully I can get out and test it today.

[docc]

Condition those "new" Odyssey, y'all!

[gstallons]

You got dat right ! new ain't ready to go ! 

[Kiwi_Roy]

14 hours ago, czakky said:

My voltage dropped below 8 while cranking even after re-conditioning this battery a couple times. It would start, but then after sitting it just barely cranks.

New odyssey delivered this week. Hopefully I can get out and test it today.

Yes I think 8 is low, less than 60% normal, its ok to dip down until it gets spinning but if it stays low the spark will also be weak making it extra hard to catch

How about taking the same reading when you get your new battery.