Stock V11 bin file fuel map analysis

[rich888]

Looking at the stock fuel map for a 2001 V11, it has some odd peaks and troughs in:

 

 

Anyone know why this is?

 

For example at 2000 rpm tps 48, is a peak of 193, which drops off at higher and lower rpms and higher and lower tps.

There is also a low fuelling trough at 4000 rpm at wider TPS values.

 

 

[sp838]

I wonder how this would compare with my PC3 map which was developed on a Dynojet dyno... I can send it to you if you want. Granted my bike has pod filters and an aftermarket exhaust, so might not be an appropriate comparison. Just putting it out there if you're curious. 

[rich888]

I actually have a PC3 too.

It has this map in (which the previous owner paid a lot of money for!)

 

[sp838]

Looks like at 4000 rpm your map raises the fueling, which would lessen that trough. Similar corrections at 2000 rpm. So, money well spent 

[rich888]

17 hours ago, sp838 said:

Looks like at 4000 rpm your map raises the fueling, which would lessen that trough. Similar corrections at 2000 rpm. So, money well spent 

£450 to alter a few hex codes in the bin file? Good money for someone!

[sp838]

Wow, is that what it costs to get a dyno tune in the UK? Luckily for us, the cost is about a third of that here in the US. While it's nice to be able to fiddle around with the ECU, I prefer to have a precise map made for my specific bike. It's also nie to have a unit like the PC# that you can make adjustments to on the fly, unlike with our clunky old ECUs with maps that need to be downloaded, edited, saved, uploaded back, and then you have to reboot it. It's a pain in the ass. So yeah, still money well spent, but we get a better deal I guess. What I'm curious about is the MyECUn which seems like it can be modified on the fly... The problem still remains that if you want to have your bike actually tuned on a dyno, here in the US pretty much all tuners use DynoJet dynos and software, and tuners aren't interested in fiddling around with clunky old ECUs, homebrew software such as Guzzidiag and arcane proprietary products like MyECU.

[Meinolf]

On 5/5/2019 at 4:44 PM, rich888 said:

Looking at the stock fuel map for a 2001 V11, it has some odd peaks and troughs in:

Anyone know why this is?

Hi,

first and foremost the the peaks and troughs are a reflection of the volumetric efficiency of the engine. Air mass going into the combustion chamber does not increase linearly with rpm or TPS opening.

Cheers
Meinolf

[Meinolf]

On 5/5/2019 at 5:18 PM, sp838 said:

I wonder how this would compare with my PC3 map which was developed on a Dynojet dyno.. 

Hi,

why would one continue to use a PC after direct editing of fuel maps became possible escapes me.

The PC is a wart on top of the ECU and the axis values don't match the ones used in the BIN at all, with all the detrimental effects resulting thereof. 

Which could be rectified, the Dynojet Power Core software allows changing the TPS % values and adding additional columns. They could be brought much closer to the degree values, at least on the 15M, where the low degree values can be represented with % values to a sufficiently good enough approximation.

And Dynojet, upon request, also changes the rpm values and columns.

Cheers
Meinolf

[sp838]

4 hours ago, Meinolf said:

why would one continue to use a PC after direct editing of fuel maps became possible escapes me.

Because the Power Commander can be edited in real time while the bike is running on a dyno is why. Editing the map directly on the Guzzi ECU is a slow and tedious process, and no professional performance tuners, at least here in the US, want to mess around with Guzzidiag. Dynojet makes industry standard equipement used by professional (or at least as close to professional as we have here) racers. So you can poo poo it all you want, but it's the best solution for getting a custom map and professional tune for the bike especially if it has been modified. If we had a more modern and open ECU like one in my Daytona 675, then the PC wouldn't be necessary. My tuner was able to develop a map for my track bike directly on the ECU for it, but will not bother with the Guzzi ECU. And he is a Guzzi and Ducati specialist. 

[sp838]

5 hours ago, Meinolf said:

The PC is a wart on top of the ECU

I think of it more like mole on Cindy Crawford's face...

 

5 hours ago, Meinolf said:

all the detrimental effects resulting

uh, what deteimental effects??? my bike runs like a beast.

 

[luhbo]

Don't take it all too digital, or black and white as it was called then, both systems have their advantages.

Biggest disadvantage of the PC is its vulnerability caused by additional connectors, additional pcbs and so on. Not to mention the space it needs.
Biggest advantage of the PC is the now finally available AutoTune / Closed Loop option (since when, btw?). Many are using it nowadays. Nomore need for a dyno at all (only if you can get on without impressive charts and curves, of course).

Another option I can think of, especially for the US, is a TuneBoy key. Tuner in the US use it on their Dynojet dynos. TuneBoy also can read PC maps and use them to modify the OEM Marelli maps. Because of this feature others also still use TuneBoy in parallel to GuzziDiag.
If you're new to this you should have a look at TuneBoy. You can still go to dynos, you can use PC maps, additionally you can change ignition values and correction maps etc. Costs should be comparable, if not better.

[luhbo]

12 minutes ago, sp838 said:

 

 

How about the hairs growing on it?

[sp838]

20 minutes ago, luhbo said:

Don't take it all too digital, or black and white as it was called then, both systems have their advantages.

Biggest disadvantage of the PC is its vulnerability caused by additional connectors, additional pcbs and so on. Not to mention the space it needs.
Biggest advantage of the PC is the now finally available AutoTune / Closed Loop option (since when, btw?). Many are using it nowadays. Nomore need for a dyno at all (only if you can get on without impressive charts and curves, of course).

Another option I can think of, especially for the US, is a TuneBoy key. Tuner in the US use it on their Dynojet dynos. TuneBoy also can read PC maps and use them to modify the OEM Marelli maps. Because of this feature others also still use TuneBoy in parallel to GuzziDiag.
If you're new to this you should have a look at TuneBoy. You can still go to dynos, you can use PC maps, additionally you can change ignition values and correction maps etc. Costs should be comparable, if not better.

The PC5 with autotune isn't compatible with our TPS. Some claim to have made it work but it is not officially supported by Dynojet. I called them and tried to get them to explain how it could be done and they refused to discuss it. That said, the tuner I used for the V11, Mark Rozema at Markbilt Racing who builds AMA race bikes, despises autotune. His feeling is you tune the bike and develop the best map possible for it and then leave it alone, that autotune just ends up deteriorating the map and running "like crap". But he is coming from a racing perspective so maybe too rigid a philosophy for street bikes, but I can't argue with the quality of the job he did on my bike. Steve Saucier at European Cycle Services (now Hudson Valley Motors) did the tune on my Daytona using TuneECU and TuneBoy.

And I don't see any hairs there, do you  ?

[sp838]

41 minutes ago, luhbo said:

additionally you can change ignition values

This is something I'm very interested in. I have twin plugged heads on my bike, but haven't set it up yet. Biggest hurdle for me going forward with this is the prospect of having to change the ignition curve. I'm dreading having to manually edit the map. I have a table that was provided to me by a gentleman on this forum who went by the name "Motoguzznix". I will delve into this over the winter. If all else fails, I'll ditch the 15M ECU (which I consider to be the boil on Sophia Lauren's ass) and install a set Keihin flat slides and an ignition module from Eletronik-Sachse and be free of the whole mess that is this Magneti Marelli injection system. 

[luhbo]

Get a little closer and take your time. There's at least one, coming right out of the black spot in the center.

And don't be too quick with the 15M Marelli system. It's rock solid and offers absolutely 100% of what can be used on this engine. Carbs, well, to each his own or so. When you expect more from a 'modern' bike like ours' than 'fuel in / fun out' and also think that the 'fuel in' part should be somewhat restricted, in this case carbs aren't a real option. Even crazy costly ones.

Interesting is the info about discrepancies between PC5 and TPS/PF3. Only last week a buddy from our forum told me how sweet the autotune option would be. Maybe the truth lays in the 'would be' part of his story

Anyway, your tuner is correct about autotune. It will screw the map to uselessness -but only if you leave it on for every days' use. That's not what it's meant for. Make a couple of test runs similar to how it's done on the dyno and then turn it off. Check for silly looking spikes, maybe smoothen them out, check rideability and then maybe repeat the autotune session. This will give you good results.

Another question is closed-loop running. Can the PC5 be used in closed-loop mode, that's basically auto-tune without modifying the map?