Stock V11 bin file fuel map analysis

[docc]

1 hour ago, MartyNZ said:

I loaded Meinolf's #93 to my bike last night.

I previously had #58, which I thought was the best yet. However #93 is better. Idle is more steady, and the engine somehow seems more willing.  

Good effort Meinolf, and thanks.

I seem to recall identical valve settings for both intake and exhaust, something like 0,30mm / 0.012"  (?)

Here is Meinolf's post, again, with the link to the current map (93_6) and his instructions on other settings (except for the valve settings) . . .

 

[kiwidave]

Lots of very interesting reports and happy Guzzi owners. About March I will be getting back at my 2002 LeMans.

[80CX100]

I've only done 10-15 kms of close to home test rides on my new to me 2003 V11Lemans, so I really don't have a good feel for the fueling or the bike yet, but the stock mapping seemed good and smooth, it didn't seem as lean & snatchy at low speed like my CalVin.

From searching and reading, I'm getting the impression that the stock map is relatively rich and for whatever reasons, the V11's seem to like wider valve clearances?

 I'd "like" to set the valves at .15 & .20 like my other modern guzzis and install a map if needed to go with new Mistral crossover & Oval CF's that I'll be installing very soon.

I have 2 maps available to me,  from Beetle "V11_LEMANS_RossoCorsa" and from Meinolf "2017.08.31_#93_6".

I know Meinolf is waayyy deeper into the V11 than Beetle is, and has refined his map a lot and people are very pleased with it, but call me a contrarian, I have a hard time planning to set my valves at .3 & .3 which is the baseline tune for his map.

I tried the wider Raceco settings .22 & .25 on my CalVin for a short while and I wasn't real impressed and went back to .15 & .20 (To be fair the bike was in dire need of a tune up fwiw)

Has anyone run .15 & .20 valve clearances with Meinolf's map? Results?

I welcome any and all thoughts and input.

Is anyone familiar with Beetle's map "V11_LEMANS_RossoCorsa" results?

I'm a newbie with guzzidiag, only done 2 tuneups with it; I'm good with computers, but I'll be in over my head saving fuel maps and uploading new ones, so I'm hoping to only do this once, my theory being much less chance of screwing things up,lol.

Tia

Kelly

[68C]

6 hours ago, 80CX100 said:

I'm a newbie with guzzidiag, only done 2 tuneups with it; I'm good with computers, but I'll be in over my head saving fuel maps and uploading new ones, so I'm hoping to only do this once, my theory being much less chance of screwing things up,lol.

 

Get yourself a second hand ecu, any WM15M, could be from a Guzzi or a Ducati 750/900.  Practice loading and unloading the maps, play around with adjustments without risk as you will have your original intact.  You could carry the original ecu in the tail stowage until happy with your new map as a get you home item.  Once happy sell off one of the ecus.

[MartyNZ]

8 hours ago, 68C said:

 

Get yourself a second hand ecu, any WM15M, could be from a Guzzi or a Ducati 750/900.  Practice loading and unloading the maps, play around with adjustments without risk as you will have your original intact.  You could carry the original ecu in the tail stowage until happy with your new map as a get you home item.  Once happy sell off one of the ecus.

68C is right, but for me, I went a cheaper way. I saved the existing map using IAW15XREADER, and carefully labeled the saved file. This saved file can be reloaded over any other BIN file at any time. IAW15XREADER will take about 15 minutes to save your file, and IAW15XWRITER can overwrite a new BIN in about 10 seconds.  My ECU has been overwritten several times. All the BIN files I tried were good, some were excellent. I didn't feel that any would fail to get me home.

[80CX100]

Hey Marty, Tks for that, I've got the reader & writer drivers loaded already and I've been studying how to save my original map as a back up.

I'm just trying to decide which map to load to go with the Mistral crossover & exhaust, and if I go with Meinolf's map if .15 & .20 valve clearances will work with it? 

If that's not a good game plan, I'd try the Beetle map and see how it goes.

[docc]

1 hour ago, 80CX100 said:

Hey Marty, Tks for that, I've got the reader & writer drivers loaded already and I've been studying how to save my original map as a back up.

I'm just trying to decide which map to load to go with the Mistral crossover & exhaust, and if I go with Meinolf's map if .15 & .20 valve clearances will work with it? 

If that's not a good game plan, I'd try the Beetle map and see how it goes.

This is a really excellent question for @Meinolf

No doubt, his are the most thoroughly and precisely developed V11 maps, ever.  What would be the effect of using the latest Meinolf map with the more typical, closer, valve clearances (0.15 & 0.20mm/ 0.006"/0.008") ?

[MartyNZ]

2 hours ago, 80CX100 said:

I'm just trying to decide which map to load to go with the Mistral crossover & exhaust, and if I go with Meinolf's map if .15 & .20 valve clearances will work with it? 

Try it. For very little effort, you can add your experience to the forum. 

I believe that the 4000 rpm hiccup that the V11 engine is prone to, is caused by inlet valve clearange too tight when engine is hot . A bigger valve clearance helped my bike. 

You lose nothing except your own time by trying different clearances. 

[80CX100]

Is there something different with the V11 engines requiring wider valve clearances, ie cam,timing,combustion chamber etc?

I've read a lot of material on the other newer guzzi engines, and .15 & .20 seem like nice wide clearances that breath well for a variety of mg efi 1064 cc engines; personally my Griso and CalVin both run well at .15 & .20

I thought that the engines were all basically the same, but the trend here with the V11 for some, seems to be much wider clearances than most other guzzis; on this site, I read of a lot of owners running .20 & .25, etc and Meinolf's map at .3 & .3.

Is there a mechanical or design reason for the difference or just personal preference?

 

 

[docc]

It's the SPOrT-1100/V11 DrJohn/Crane cam, no? And the compromise to make sure the valves seat long enough (loose enough) to cool through the seats?

Early, tight (US?) valve clearances were more about noise control? Certainly not about longevity.

P.Roper rightfully noted that the looser the valve lash, the less the lift and duration from the cam. Lower performance (?)

Trade-offs!

[80CX100]

24 minutes ago, docc said:

It's the SPOrT-1100/V11 DrJohn/Crane cam, no? And the compromise to make sure the valves seat long enough (loose enough) to cool through the seats?

Early, tight (US?) valve clearances were more about noise control? Certainly not about longevity.

P.Roper rightfully noted that the looser the valve lash, the less the lift and duration from the cam. Lower performance (?)

Trade-offs!

I had read about Dr John & the Crane cam, but I assumed that design ended up in all of the ECU EFI bike and they were all the same, I'll spend some more time reading on it before I do a final tune up.

I still have quite a bit to do before I get to that stage.

Tks to all for taking the time to reply

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, docc said:

It's the SPOrT-1100/V11 DrJohn/Crane cam, no? And the compromise to make sure the valves seat long enough (loose enough) to cool through the seats?

Early, tight (US?) valve clearances were more about noise control? Certainly not about longevity.

P.Roper rightfully noted that the looser the valve lash, the less the lift and duration from the cam. Lower performance (?)

Trade-offs!

Yes and you negate the lifting ramps on the cams which gives the followers and retainers a hard life.

Ciao

[80CX100]

I ripped quickly through a bunch of material; from Guzziology and this site, the cams, part # 3705 3305 on the Sport & V11s are different, there is mention of them being higher lift and if I'm reading the charts right, longer duration.

I also read a reference that the valves themselves are larger, just slightly smaller than the size on the old big valve engines.

I'm starting to get a better understanding of why Chuck and others have described the V11's as the last of the real hot rod guzzis.

The more I'm learning about the bike, I'm getting anxious to get it on the road.

Tks

 

 

[Meinolf]

Hi,

I'm being quoted as recommending a valve play of 0,3mm or larger for both exhaust and intake valves on the V11. I can't recall recommending this for the V11. The V11 camshaft is very good and the ramps are not overly long. Using 0.25/0.25mm is my recommendation.

The old Tonti camshafts, on the other hand, are best served with a valve play of 0.35/0.35mm. The have very long ramps, using the factory recommendation of 0.25/20mm leads to a opening angle of >400°, the valves are slightly (1-2/100mm) open over a wide range during ramp up. The effects are decreased valve cooling time, loss of mean pressure and cylinder fillling.

The two pictures (Copyright Motoguzznix) show the effect for the 2 camshaft types.

Cheers
Meinolf

 

[80CX100]

9 minutes ago, Meinolf said:

Hi,

I'm being quoted as recommending a valve play of 0,3mm or larger for both exhaust and intake valves on the V11. I can't recall recommending this for the V11. The V11 camshaft is very good and the ramps are not overly long. Using 0.25/0.25mm is my recommendation.

The old Tonti camshafts, on the other hand, are best served with a valve play of 0.35/0.35mm. The have very long ramps, using the factory recommendation of 0.25/20mm leads to a opening angle of >400°, the valves are slightly (1-2/100mm) open over a wide range during ramp up. The effects are decreased valve cooling time, loss of mean pressure and cylinder fillling.

The two pictures (Copyright Motoguzznix) show the effect for the 2 camshaft types.

Cheers
Meinolf

 

Hey Meinolf,    Thank you so much for jumping in here.

I went back through all the information that I've saved and I've got numerous files that people mention the wider clearances attributing it to you, but you're correct, I apologize, none of the posts were made directly by you.

If I loaded your map with a Mistral Crossover/Oval Exhaust with .15 & .20 clearances would it be less wear and tear on the valve train? Would it run poorly?

If your map is designed for .25 & .25 clearances, am I understanding it correctly that if I change from those clearances that I will screw up the timing built into the map?

Tks

Kelly