Startus interuptus revisited

[Chuck]

While I'm fooling with doing technical electrical work on the Mighty Scura, I thought I'd address this issue. It's 17 years old, now.. 

From looking at the schematic, it looks like I could just run a wire from Fuse F3 to the 30 post on the start relay and save yet another connection to the battery post. Is this a logical thing to do?

TIA

[gstallons]

Hmmm. w/o looking . If you can keep it tidy and use a larger gauge wire , I would give it a go .

[Kiwi_Roy]

Is fuse 3 fed direct from the battery?

Is the 87A contact un-used? 

I don't see a Scura diagram among Carl's drawings.

Here is a similar year bike where you can't do that because the 87A contact feeds the headlight relay coil' it would flatten the battery.

With a small wiring change the headlight relay (22) coil could be fed from the ignition switch (jumper from 30 to 85) with the other end of the coil 86  to downstream of the main solenoid contact instead of to chassis so it turns off the lights while cranking or just leave the light On.

Look what a torturous path the Start relay 30 takes on this bike, an early sufferer, I would provide a new fuse direct from battery positive.

The main thing is to get as much current to the start relay as possible while making sure it won't crank with the key Off.

The Valeo Solenoid will pull over 40 Amps if its fed properly.

[OldButNotDead]

I've wrestled with startus interruptus forever, but years ago *thought* I'd figured out that my bike had the earlier wiring.  I recently checked and found no juice at terminal 30 of the starter relay with the ignition off (ala KiwiRoy's advice), so now know I have the "later" wiring.  I'm looking at the Carl Allison schematic for the 2004 V11, with the understanding it may not be fully accurate.

Maybe I missed this idea in the various threads, but my thought is to install a new relay - dedicated to handling the "lights dropout" switching. 

That would "purify" the starter relay by eliminating functions downstream of terminal 87A, so I could hotwire terminal 30 with a low resistance path, and not affect anything else.   I would retain the by tapping into it and sharing

The new relay would get wired with a terminal 85 trigger (shared by tapping into the starter relay) + a terminal 30 input and terminal 87A output - each pulled off the starter relay. 

I'm thinking implementation ought to be pretty straightforward, but am wondering if I'm missing something?
 

[Chuck]

I'm definitely no sparky, but if I were going to add another relay, I'd make it the starter relay. Fused feed to 30, trigger it with the solenoid wire, and run a 16 gauge wire to the solenoid. KR will be along shortly to tell me why that won't work.

[gstallons]

10 hours ago, OldButNotDead said:

I've wrestled with startus interruptus forever, but years ago *thought* I'd figured out that my bike had the earlier wiring.  I recently checked and found no juice at terminal 30 of the starter relay with the ignition off (ala KiwiRoy's advice), so now know I have the "later" wiring.  I'm looking at the Carl Allison schematic for the 2004 V11, with the understanding it may not be fully accurate.

Maybe I missed this idea in the various threads, but my thought is to install a new relay - dedicated to handling the "lights dropout" switching. 

That would "purify" the starter relay by eliminating functions downstream of terminal 87A, so I could hotwire terminal 30 with a low resistance path, and not affect anything else.   I would retain the by tapping into it and sharing

The new relay would get wired with a terminal 85 trigger (shared by tapping into the starter relay) + a terminal 30 input and terminal 87A output - each pulled off the starter relay. 

I'm thinking implementation ought to be pretty straightforward, but am wondering if I'm missing something?
 

Look at the thread "What did you do  to your Guzzi today" . I installed a larger automotive relay in series with the starter relay . Exactly what is the month/year of production of your bike and what model ? This is easy to wire into . Call my cell if you need too7oh ate4one one77for

[OldButNotDead]

The input is much appreciated; I've got an 03 Naked.

I'm a hack at electrics (and wrenching in general),  but having a 12 x 18 laminated C.Allison schematic and colored whiteboard markers to trace paths helps me muddle through.  Will look into the gstallons approach.

Unless and until KR nixes this, I think it's a plan!

[gstallons]

Mine is an 03 . This is the EASIEST thing you will ever do . Call me . this will take 2 minutes . 

# 1 come up with a conventional ( regular size ) relay ,mounting bracket & connector.

 #  2 make sure there is NOT a diode in the relay . 

 # 3 connect # 30 through a fuse to 12v , 85 to ground .

 # 4 disconnect the solenoid wire and install a wire with a male terminal to the existing solenoid wire , then to 86 .*

 # 5 go from 87 to the starter solenoid and attach using a female butt connector .* 

* use 16 ga wire to make sure you get optimum current flow to the solenoid . I mounted the relay to the battery mounting frame .

[vuzzi]

A while ago I make a drawing of the wiring adjustment, based on a drawing by Roy Kiwi. Here is the original

[vuzzi]

And here is the adjusted wiring. You could add a fuse in line to the starter

[gstallons]

I don't know if it matters , I put my fuse/holder between the battery and # 30 of the relay and tucked the holder under the strap of the battery hold-down .  It may be better to put the fuse/holder between 87 and solenoid . 

I would post some pics but , I am not smart enough . The wire gauge was 16 ,14 or something . I went to NAPA and got $35 worth of stuff because I couldn't find anything . BTW I use uninsulated butt connectors and heat shrink .This keeps out water intrusion and acts as a strain relief .As I have stated , the new relay carries the current to the starter and not the mini-relay in the relay holder . I have used this before on Lucas starters . They burn UP neutral and ignition switches like crazy . 

 

 A special thanks to K-R for putting down in print  my thoughts .

[Kiwi_Roy]

1 hour ago, vuzzi said:

A while ago I make a drawing of the wiring adjustment, based on a drawing by Roy Kiwi. Here is the original

When I sketched this out it was not with Startus Interuptus in mind, it was merely to show how you can test most of the wiring from under the seat because all of the switches terminate at a fuse or relay contact.

It was drawn from a 2001 VII Sport that never had a starting issue because Fuse 5 is fed directly from the battery.

In Note 6 I had noticed something strange about the starter solenoid, by Ohms Law 12/0.3 should result in a current of 40 Amps, instead I measured 6 however this was after the inrush which was well over 30 Amps as I proved later when I discovered two coils in the solenoid.

 

Getting back to Vuzzzi's modified sketch and GStallons extra relay, yes that will work for sure. The later bike will have the Start relay through the ignition switch so the original relay has a weak supply The fuse IMHO should be in the wire to 30

 

 

Having said all this you should still clean your ignition switch every 5 years or so  otherwise it gets so bad it starts to cause the ECU to drop out

 

 

 

[Kiwi_Roy]

 

The Start relay in this 2004 has terminal 30 fed from the ignition switch, I call this a weak supply. Look terminal 30 is so close to the battery on the drawing it's begging to be connected there.

Chop the wire off and feed it with a direct fuse

Also cut the wire off 87A and connect the two together so now when you press Start the light stays On and the engine leaps into life

Turn the key Off and the light goes out

If you decide you must have the lights turn off while cranking remove the headlight relay coil terminal 86 from chassis and run it to the starter, the second large terminal between main contact and the motor now while it is cranking the headlight relay coil will have 12 Volts on 85 and 86 so it will turn off. When the motor stops spinning it will turn back On because 86 is connected to chassis through the starter.

Ther's more than one way to kill a cat, not just choking it with cream.

[OldButNotDead]

4 hours ago, Kiwi_Roy said:

Chop the wire off and feed it with a direct fuse

Also cut the wire off 87A and connect the two together so now when you press Start the light stays On and the engine leaps into life

Turn the key Off and the light goes out

If you decide you must have the lights turn off while cranking remove the headlight relay coil terminal 86 from chassis and run it to the starter, the second large terminal between main contact and the motor now while it is cranking the headlight relay coil will have 12 Volts on 85 and 86 so it will turn off. When the motor stops spinning it will turn back On because 86 is connected to chassis through the starter.

Ther's more than one way to kill a cat, not just choking it with cream.

Thanks to all for suggestions; in the interest of doing what's necessary, but nothing more....elegance beckons.  And in keeping with Kiwi tradition, the verbal synopsis manages to turn that elegance inside out.   No way no how would I still own this bike without this board.