Relay Failure

[PDBoulder]

Hi,

I have a new to me 2003 Lemans that just last week experienced a relay failure. Heading home after work, it was about 98 degF traveling about 80mph and the bike started cutting out, bucking pretty bad. I managed to make it home, about another ten miles. I had just purchased a tank of gas and suspected that I kicked up something in the bottom of the tank that was causing the intermittent cutout. Pulled the pump and filter, replacing the filter. Nope, that wasn’t it. The bike would still cut out. By pure luck I noticed that relays #4 and #5 were very hot. The prior bike owner provided me with several new Omron G8HE-1A7T-R1-DC12 relays. Sure as shit, replacing relay #4 and contact grease solved the problem. The problem is that today on my way home from work in 85 degree weather the new relay failed. At lunch I had put 70 miles on the bike in and around boulder canyon. Bike ran flawlessly. Air temp was about 80deg. I tested the old relay and it tests fine 83Ohm coil, and 0.1 Ohm contact resistance? So, what is the root cause of the relay failure? Is it the female spade connector losing its spring when hot? Oxidation on the blade? The old relay even when the bike had cooled down still failed in slot #4. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Paul

[footgoose]

not sure what 4 does, but 5 runs the fuel pump. did you replace all relays? if not, do that first. smarter people will chime in with help. welcome Paul

[docc]

Clean those connections (mounting block) with something like CRC Electronics Cleaner, and treat with "something like" Caig DeOxit®. (There is nothing like it.)

Pull the relays straight out. Don't wind them around or you'll be repairing the tiny, flimsy connectors in the bases.

Most importantly, install the GH8E in all positions, but especially #5.

[MartyNZ]

As well as getting relays failing, you can get poor pin retention, and/or pushed back sockets in the relay bases.  See Kiwi_Roy's advice on fixing the relay bases.  

https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20534-relay-base-repair/&do=findComment&comment=172857

 

 

[PDBoulder]

Thank you all for your recommendations. When I replaced the two relays, I used CRC Electronics Cleaner on the socket and terminals as well as smeared dielectric grease on the terminals.

Mikko, It appeared to me that both #4 and #5 were getting hot. It seemed that by process of elimination, relay #4 was the culprit. I will look for the pump ground to eliminate that possibility as well.

MartyNZ, that link is what I needed. I'm thinking the female spade connectors must have relaxed and need to be tightened up.

[Chuck]

Quote

smeared dielectric grease on the terminals.

Not good. Relay manufacturers will tell you to keep that stuff away from their relays. There is some chemistry involved, but I would never use dielectric grease on any bike that has relays, except for the spark plug boots. Period. Apparently, it can even cause gas that travels in the wiring harness and get to the relays.

[PDBoulder]

Hi Chuck,

Thank you for stating this and making me do some research. Sure enough, Omron has a statement about this in section 3.3. I will now be cleaning the grease off the contacts as well.

http://www.ia.omron.com/product/cautions/36/safety_precautions.html

[docc]

hmmm, wait, I see the relays the PO provided are "1A7T" . . . not 1C7T?

These four blade relays?

If so, do not use in Position #1 (Start)/ at the front of the stack. This requires a five blade relay.

 

[docc]

Also, PDBoulder, look at this temperature data. Others also listed some temperature data to see on that thread. Expect the last relay (#5) to run hotter as it is the coils, injectors, and fuel pump.

 

[PDBoulder]

Hi docc, Mikko

I have both relays 1A7T and 1C7T.  It's possible that the heat generated by#5 affected #4.

I ordered the DeoxIT. Should have it in a day or two.

I hope to be able to work on it this weekend.

 

[docc]

Yes, #5 affects #4.

The advantage to using "Form C" is they can be switched around into any position. Only Position #1 (Start) requires Form C/ 5-pin.

You're on the right track, buddy!

[gstallons]

Docc's the MAN

[docc]

1 hour ago, gstallons said:

Docc's the MAN

Aw, shucks  . . .

Seriously, everything I've posted about relays, and tune-up, and so many other things, are just complex issues that I learned the parameters and solutions from folks here, and other reliable sources, and made compilations that are (hopefully) easily searched and found.

You guys deserve quality, searchable, and concise threads that keep these V11 on the road and safe.

[Kiwi_Roy]

On 9/3/2019 at 6:17 PM, PDBoulder said:

Hi,

I have a new to me 2003 Lemans that just last week experienced a relay failure. Heading home after work, it was about 98 degF traveling about 80mph and the bike started cutting out, bucking pretty bad. I managed to make it home, about another ten miles. I had just purchased a tank of gas and suspected that I kicked up something in the bottom of the tank that was causing the intermittent cutout. Pulled the pump and filter, replacing the filter. Nope, that wasn’t it. The bike would still cut out. By pure luck I noticed that relays #4 and #5 were very hot. The prior bike owner provided me with several new Omron G8HE-1A7T-R1-DC12 relays. Sure as shit, replacing relay #4 and contact grease solved the problem. The problem is that today on my way home from work in 85 degree weather the new relay failed. At lunch I had put 70 miles on the bike in and around boulder canyon. Bike ran flawlessly. Air temp was about 80deg. I tested the old relay and it tests fine 83Ohm coil, and 0.1 Ohm contact resistance? So, what is the root cause of the relay failure? Is it the female spade connector losing its spring when hot? Oxidation on the blade? The old relay even when the bike had cooled down still failed in slot #4. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Paul

It may not be a relay problem, could be a dirty side stand switch allowing relay 4 to drop out resetting the ECU, try removing the stand relay R3 and stuffing a jumper in the socket between 30 and 87. This happened to my 01

[PDBoulder]

Thanks Kiwi_Roy for the suggestion. I followed your write up on tightening up the relay block female disconnects. Relays now fit snug. I ran the bike yesterday, and it ran without fault. However, the outside air temp was only around 85. The failure only seemed to occur when the outside air temp was above 90+. If the problem does come back, I'll try what you just recommended.