Scura clutch

[Chuck]

My friend Mark at MG Classics, has a customer with a dead Scura. When I came through the door, he said.."here's the guy that will know.." He was wrong, of course. I told him that I thought Ram made a single plate kit if you have the original input gear. It does, but it's toast, too.

Mark can't find one. What is involved in installing a dual plate clutch? Parts availabity?

TIA

[Lucky Phil]

5 minutes ago, Chuck said:

My friend Mark at MG Classics, has a customer with a dead Scura. When I came through the door, he said.."here's the guy that will know.." He was wrong, of course. I told him that I thought Ram made a single plate kit if you have the original input gear. It does, but it's toast, too.

Mark can't find one. What is involved in installing a dual plate clutch? Parts availabity?

TIA

Why not just grind down the twin plate gearbox input spline? Now I've had my twin plate gearbox off the engine it looks to me like its a fairly simple task to surface grind it back to the dimensions of the single plate unit.

Ciao

 

[Chuck]

2 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

Why not just grind down the twin plate gearbox input spline? Now I've had my twin plate gearbox off the engine it looks to me like its a fairly simple task to surface grind it back to the dimensions of the single plate unit.

Ciao

 

I don't think I understand what you're saying Phil..can you try me again?

I don't have either in my hand and my memory is not terribly long. 🤔

[Chuck]

I should mention that Mark has a 98 V11 twin plate clutch available. What does it take to make this usable?

[pete roper]

Swapping out the gearbox input boss is the only other thing you need to do. From memory the boss for the twin plater used on the V11 has a shorter spigot, (The bit the seal runs on.) than the one for either the five speed box or the later six speed used on the CARC bikes.

I'd just make sure you check the part #'s to ensure you get the right one. Other than that it's a straight swap.

My personal and entirely unsolicited opinion is that the difference in performance between the grenade like factory single plater, it's aftermarket cousin and the tried and tested twin plater that had been used in eight and ten spring form since pterodactyls were laying eggs is so negligible that especially on a street bike the risk/cost benefit analysis makes the twin plater a far better option. That's why the Scura RC has one in, (Along with the stock airbox, filter etc.)

 

Pete

Edited December 21, 2019 by pete roper
Spelling.

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, Chuck said:

I don't think I understand what you're saying Phil..can you try me again?

I don't have either in my hand and my memory is not terribly long. 🤔

The only difference I can see between the twin plate and single plate gearbox input spline drive that bolts to the gearbox input shaft is the depth (front to back dimension) twin plate looks like maybe 25mm of spline that interfaces with the clutch friction plates and the single plater maybe 20mm. So why not just surface grind that additional 5mm off the fwd face and bring the splined length fwd to aft doen to the single plate dimension. If it was softer material you could just chuck it up in the lathe and face it off but it will be too hard for that.

Ciao 

[Lucky Phil]

29 minutes ago, pete roper said:

Swapping out the gearbox input boss is the only other thing you need to do. From memory the boss for the twin plater used on the V11 has a shorter spigot, (The bit the seal runs on.) than the one for either the five speed box or the later six speed used on the CARC bikes.

I'd just make sure you check the part #'s to ensure you get the right one. Other than that it's a straight swap.

My personal and entirely unsolicited opinion is that the difference in performance between the grenade like factory single plater, it's aftermarket cousin and the tried and tested twin plater that had been used in eight and ten spring form since pterodactyls were laying eggs is so negligible that especially on a street bike the risk/cost benefit analysis makes the twin plater a far better option. That's why the Scura RC has one in, (Along with the stock airbox, filter etc.)

 

Pete

I didnt remove mine from the gearbox Pete but it looks like its the same as the single plater and I cant see any reason for it to be different. Famous last words of course. To me it looks like the single plater is just a shorter version of the twin with all the material taken off the front face.

Ciao  

[Lucky Phil]

Here's a twin plate 6 speed assy. the single plate one looks the same except for the depth of the splined section front to rear.

 

Here's the single plater

Ciao

[Scud]

Chuck - I have a spare input hub for a single-plate clutch. I would loan it to you for use as a reference to machine another one down to match, but I think I would not like to sell it.

FYI, I ditched my Scura's stock single plate clutch in favor of the Ram single plate with the steel (not aluminum) flywheel. At the time, I had two V11s, one with the standard dual plate clutch. The difference was enough for me to enjoy and appreciate - partly because I like unusual stuff. In terms of absolute performance, the difference is not really material. But a single plate clutch is cool and different... just like me. 

[pete roper]

1 hour ago, Lucky Phil said:

Here's a twin plate 6 speed assy. the single plate one looks the same except for the depth of the splined section front to rear.

 

Here's the single plater

Ciao

Sorry, the point I was trying to make was you can use essentially any clutch/flywheel assembly from virtually any 1100 model but care has to be taken that the correct input hub is used and that the hubs used on both the five speed and the later 'Three Shaft' six speed as used on the pushrod engined CARC bikes won't work on the V11 'Four Shaft' gearbox so if a clutch assembly off say a Breva 1100 is used, while it is identical the input shaft boss, if supplied with the clutch assembly, won't work and will need to have the correct one substituted.

Pete

[Lucky Phil]

6 minutes ago, pete roper said:

Sorry, the point I was trying to make was you can use essentially any clutch/flywheel assembly from virtually any 1100 model but care has to be taken that the correct input hub is used and that the hubs used on both the five speed and the later 'Three Shaft' six speed as used on the pushrod engined CARC bikes won't work on the V11 'Four Shaft' gearbox so if a clutch assembly off say a Breva 1100 is used, while it is identical the input shaft boss, if supplied with the clutch assembly, won't work and will need to have the correct one substituted.

Pete

Oh OK Pete, I re read your post and see my mistake. Sorry.

Ciao

[pete roper]

No worries. Personally I like a bit of flywheel on my Guzzis, my old SP had an Eldo flywheel in it! Drop one of those on yer foot and you'll never walk again!  I'm not experienced enough with the V11 single platers to know how different they are but on my 1100 Griso, which uses the same 'Lightweight' flywheel as the V11's I always thought, if anything, a bit more mass would be nice.

With the 8V the earlier single plate clutch/flywheel assemblies were very slightly more massive than the twin plater they replaced but require a really quite heavy pull at the lever. The design was revised once with a lighter diaphragm and the pull reduced slightly but then in about 2012/13 all the 8V's started using the Cali 14 assembly which is noticeably heavier but has a much lighter pull. It's what I've got in both my Griso and 1400 motored Stelvio and I actually prefer the extra mass and the lighter pull is magic for my arthritic old claws!

As I said, simply a personal preference.

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, pete roper said:

No worries. Personally I like a bit of flywheel on my Guzzis, my old SP had an Eldo flywheel in it! Drop one of those on yer foot and you'll never walk again!  I'm not experienced enough with the V11 single platers to know how different they are but on my 1100 Griso, which uses the same 'Lightweight' flywheel as the V11's I always thought, if anything, a bit more mass would be nice.

With the 8V the earlier single plate clutch/flywheel assemblies were very slightly more massive than the twin plater they replaced but require a really quite heavy pull at the lever. The design was revised once with a lighter diaphragm and the pull reduced slightly but then in about 2012/13 all the 8V's started using the Cali 14 assembly which is noticeably heavier but has a much lighter pull. It's what I've got in both my Griso and 1400 motored Stelvio and I actually prefer the extra mass and the lighter pull is magic for my arthritic old claws!

As I said, simply a personal preference.

Well Pete, after I get the V11 up and running again I'll let you know what the single plate clutch feel like on a Daytona engine. I have no doubt i'll like the reduced mass as someone thats been riding and owning Ducatis for 35 years.

Ciao 

[Rox Lemans]

MG Cycles sells a flywheel and clutch kit. And it ain't cheap. I went through this with mine. Needed a clutch and flywheel. Todd at Guzzitech tried the remedies. Lightened steel flywheel, etc. After months of him pulling his hair out most likely he had to get a new kit. 

      There is no cheap way around it. I like Mark at MG Classics. He sold me my Lemans. The wrong guy for a Scura clutch job. He's a vintage Guzzi guy. I needed my throttle bodies adjusted and had him do it. Bike ran like sh!t for months. When I got my map done I had my throttlebodies synched. Todd was astonished the bike even ran...lol Morale to the story: Mark is a vintage guy. Give him a 650 Embassador or even a 1000 Daytona with Del Ortos and he can do magic. Anything modern after 2000 and it's a toss up. I hate saying it too. But he will "fix it" and later on......Boom.  

Even crazier is I can guess the Scura and he should know this after knowing the deal with my Scura. There's maybe 5 or 6 Scuras in the SoCal area (5 since I moved) and like 600 worldwide. 

[Chuck]

Thanks for all the replies. I'll give all this info to Mark today. I'm out in SoCal, so don't have any machining capability. I agree that Mark doesn't want to fool with electronics.but.. this is a nuts and bolts job. He'll be fine with this job.