Cam chain tensioner upgrade

[nobleswood]

Back in 2016 at the Ohio Rally I met Chuck & his Scura. One of the things I liked about his bike was how quiet it was at idle: a whir of gears & the burble from the exhaust. Very different from the rattle & hesitant idle of my V11.

Ever since then I've been meaning to change the cam chain tensioner, but stuff got in the way. this holiday however;

 

 

[Lucky Phil]

On 1/1/2020 at 2:33 PM, nobleswood said:

Back in 2016 at the Ohio Rally I met Chuck & his Scura. One of the things I liked about his bike was how quiet it was at idle: a whir of gears & the burble from the exhaust. Very different from the rattle & hesitant idle of my V11.

Ever since then I've been meaning to change the cam chain tensioner, but stuff got in the way. this holiday however;

 

 

While you're in there you may as well do an accurate measurement of the pick-up gap and look at the cam retainer flange for wear.

Ciao

 

On 1/1/2020 at 5:40 PM, Lucky Phil said:

While you're in there you may as well do an accurate measurement of the pick-up gap and look at the cam retainer flange for wear.

Ciao

How is this best accomplished?

 

On 1/1/2020 at 6:09 PM, docc said:

How is this best accomplished?

Pull back and forth on the cam sprocket and feel for end float. The earlier retainers didnt have any oil relief grooves cut into the face and tended to wear while the later ones had 3 oil relief grooves. If you have the older type and its new or not heavily worn you can file the grooves in yourself with a round file or use a 6mm parallel rotary cutter in a hand drill and do it.

Here's a brand new latest type with the oil reliefs in the thrust face.

 

Hears the old type with no oil relief and heavy wear on the thrust face. Notice how the cam sprocket flange has worn down into the retainer thrust face in this case probably close to 1 mm. It"s so perfect looking people think recess into the thrust face is normal and they reinstall it during rebuilds. Its not it's actually heavy wear as you can see by the comparison with the new one. Without the oil reliefs as the sprocket flange wears into the retainer thrust face it exacerbates the lack of oil issue as it creates the small ring which inhibits oil supply even more and it gets worse as it wears. The more wear the more shielding and less oil. A spiralling situation

Ciao

   

 

On 1/1/2020 at 5:40 PM, Lucky Phil said:

While you're in there you may as well do an accurate measurement of the pick-up gap and look at the cam retainer flange for wear.

Ciao

 

On 1/1/2020 at 2:33 PM, nobleswood said:

Back in 2016 at the Ohio Rally I met Chuck & his Scura. One of the things I liked about his bike was how quiet it was at idle: a whir of gears & the burble from the exhaust. Very different from the rattle & hesitant idle of my V11.

Ever since then I've been meaning to change the cam chain tensioner, but stuff got in the way. this holiday however;

 

 

Curious about the mileage ?

Cheers tom.

 

Phil,

thanks for the tip; I'll check that.

Bike has about 18K miles. It's a 2004 naked. The tensioner has as much strength as wet cardboard 

The gasket was leaking low on the LHS which pushed me into getting on with the job.

Currently fighting the stuck woodruff key that drives the alternator. Tapping on the crankshaft is not something I'd think is a good idea. 

 

On 1/1/2020 at 9:24 PM, nobleswood said:

Phil,

thanks for the tip; I'll check that.

Bike has about 18K miles. It's a 2004 naked. The tensioner has as much strength as wet cardboard 

The gasket was leaking low on the LHS which pushed me into getting on with the job.

Currently fighting the stuck woodruff key that drives the alternator. Tapping on the crankshaft is not something I'd think is a good idea. 

You can usually pry them out with a small screw driver. Tapping them back into the slot wont do any harm. Use one of the later metal gaskets with the pressure sensitive sealant coating. I wouldn't use a standard old style gasket when you can get these. 

http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=170&products_id=5044

Ciao

 

+1 on the metal gasket.

And anyone who still has the paper gasket should have one on hand so you are ready when the paper one does start leaking... and it will.

 

On 1/1/2020 at 2:33 PM, nobleswood said:

Anyone have thoughts on the "improved" tensioner, MG Cycle #13058200 ?

http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=347

 

On 1/3/2020 at 3:54 PM, bbolesaz said:

Anyone have thoughts on the "improved" tensioner, MG Cycle #13058200 ?

http://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=347

Work good.. last long time. 

 

I dont really know what the better style is and being a "gear" man myself I cant offer any practical experience. It is however interesting to note the comments here that refer to the "banana" style tensioner. Not commenting on the quality of this just the style which is the same as the standard type by and large.

  https://hmb-guzzi.de/Timing-Chain-tensioner-CNC-made-HMB-design

Ciao

 

On 1/3/2020 at 5:42 PM, Lucky Phil said:

I dont really know what the better style is and being a "gear" man myself I cant offer any practical experience. It is however interesting to note the comments here that refer to the "banana" style tensioner. Not commenting on the quality of this just the style which is the same as the standard type by and large.

  https://hmb-guzzi.de/Timing-Chain-tensioner-CNC-made-HMB-design

Ciao

Yah, I keep looking for my timing marks to jump around under the strobe. I figure that would tell me the tensioner/ chain is due.

No leaks as yet (but don't let her hear this! ) . . .

Seems V11 timing chest leaks are more likely on the wrinkle black finishes of '02 & '03-carry-overs

 

On 1/3/2020 at 6:02 PM, docc said:

Yah, I keep looking for my timing marks to jump around under the strobe. I figure that would tell me the tensioner/ chain is due.

No leaks as yet (but don't let her hear this! ) . . .

Seems V11 timing chest leaks are more likely on the wrinkle black finishes of '02 & '03-carry-overs

I also note the Banana style tensioner gets a mention in Guzziology for the increased noise factor. Maybe just a new spring and rubbing block is the safest bet.

Why the black models would be more prone to leaking I dont know docc.

Ciao

 

On 1/3/2020 at 6:27 PM, Lucky Phil said:

I also note the Banana style tensioner gets a mention in Guzziology for the increased noise factor. Maybe just a new spring and rubbing block is the safest bet.

Why the black models would be more prone to leaking I dont know docc.

Ciao

I seem to recall the weak wrinkle black paint might have been applied to the mating surfaces and led to poor sealing?

 

On 1/3/2020 at 6:32 PM, docc said:

I seem to recall the weak wrinkle black paint might have been applied to the mating surfaces and led to poor sealing?

Ok, not heard that but I can say after stripping it off a gearbox that its the work of the devil. Worst paint I've ever removed and I've been involved in stripping paint off heavy jets. Actually the original stripper for jets back in the seventies was great stuff, paint came off in big sheets for the most part. Then they went to the environmentally friendly stuff and not so great.

Scudd didnt have any issues stripping wrinkle paint off a gearbox though I recall.

Ciao  

 

New tensioners too?  I just had the timing chest serviced.

I am about ready surrender this bike to guy that wants a Greenie

 

On 1/3/2020 at 6:27 PM, Lucky Phil said:

I also note the Banana style tensioner gets a mention in Guzziology for the increased noise factor. Maybe just a new spring and rubbing block is the safest bet.

Why the black models would be more prone to leaking I dont know docc.

Ciao

"That got a blower on it, man??" 

"You wanna find out?" 

 

On 1/3/2020 at 9:40 PM, Chuck said:

"That got a blower on it, man??" 

"You wanna find out?" 

Go ahead, make my day?:)

Ciao

 

On 1/3/2020 at 6:42 PM, Lucky Phil said:

...I can say after stripping it off a gearbox that its the work of the devil. 

Scudd didnt have any issues stripping wrinkle paint off a gearbox though I recall.  

^ there may be some connection between those statements.

 

And deeper we go....

Pick up measured 0.7mm

 

On 1/19/2020 at 3:39 PM, nobleswood said:

And deeper we go....

Pick up measured 0.7mm

0.7 Perfect. Hows the wear on the cam retaining bush? any ridge on the thrust face OD?

Ciao

 

After a strong cup of tea, I'm going back to the shed to pull the cam thingy you warned us of. We'll find out soon..

 

On 1/19/2020 at 4:06 PM, nobleswood said:

After a strong cup of tea, I'm going back to the shed to pull the cam thingy you warned us of. We'll find out soon..

You dont need to pull it to see the wear. Its on the font thrust face. I can see it has wear just not to what extent.It doesnt look really bad as there's no marking on the front main bearing flange at 12 oclock from the phonic wheel which happens with a really worn bush as the cam floats for and aft.

Here's a new one with the oil relief cutouts

Heres a worn one without the oil reliefs.Note the sharp lip on the edge of the thrust face.

Ciao 

 

Sorry I was orientated backwards; I thought the wear was on the back side.

Anyway, pulled the part & added the oil relief grooves as instructed. Looking at the surface you can just see the beginning of the wear you indicated.

Docc, can you attach Lucky Phil's recommended improvement to the cam chain tensioner thread ?

[docc]

At noblewood's request,  I have attempted to merge some tensioner and cam trust bearing content here. Not thrilled with the way that went. All the content moved, but went into one post.

I'll get better at this, I promise. 

[nobleswood]

Novice question; replacing the seal. Is it a dry fit ? Fixed with gasket sealer ? Lightly oiled & fitted ?

Hammer for moderators approval 

[Lucky Phil]

Lightly oiled or a smear or grease. Support with a piece of wood directly under the seal boss on the opposite side and tap in with a socket of the appropriate size until bottomed.

A press would be better but when needs must.

Ciao

[nobleswood]

Thanks

I’ll be cautious getting the seal in, too many examples of timing cases with pieces broken off recently

[Chuck]

Nice hammer..