Seat latch mithering the relays

[stewgnu]

Hey up guys, 

A couple of instances of non-starting lead me to noticing that how the seat cable is routed results in it pressing up against the rearward relay.  I’ve lashed it to the sub-frame now so that’s that, but might be something to check?

What is that relay for again?  Basically I had a starting failure where the bike was priming and cranking fine but not firing up.  I did an amateur relay wiggle which did the job so am wondering if my diagnosis is correct?

Docc- I remember seeing that you’ve labelled your relays, can you post a pic purlease?

 

[docc]

Hey-yep . . . stand by . . .

That rear-most relay (#5) is the majorly stressed fuel injection/ignition relay. It also feeds Relay#4 for the ECU, so that is part of the completely separate wiring harness for the V11 to run and includes fuses #1 and #2. This is the circuit that Kiwi_Roy's "Go_Winkie"  monitors.

I recall K_Roy's measurements confirmed Relay5 carries some 22.5 amps.  Definitely un-good for a 20 amp relay, especially if the Chinese have over-rated it . . . [edit: Best Relay]

Also critical the relays make good contact. [edit: Relay Base Repair]

Great catch finding the seat latch cable against the 5th relay! Going to check mine now . . .

[docc]

Pay no mind to the relays in this view, the image is only to show my method of labeling relay functions:

Start - Lights - Neutral - ECU - Fuel/Ignition

[docc]

I also label the fuse functions as to be visible from the left side on the side stand. (Likewise, ignore the 30 amp Maxi fuse, that did not work and been superseded by a circuit breaker.)

[docc]

So, my seat latch cable is tied to the outboard side of the subframe tube well clear of the relays and bases. Thanks for the hey-up on that Stewgnu!

Now I'm looking at my Go_Winkie wired into Fuse#8 (early electric petcock circuit) and wondering if it really reads the FI circuit correctly.

Another topic, I know . . .

[stewgnu]

Excellent sauce.  Cheers docc!

I’ve not had a problem till now but I’m guessing that miles and miles of good vibes thru the latch cable may have stressed the relay base 

(or just that relay) causing consternation in the system.

[docc]

15 hours ago, docc said:

So, my seat latch cable is tied to the outboard side of the subframe tube well clear of the relays and bases. Thanks for the hey-up on that Stewgnu!

Now I'm looking at my Go_Winkie wired into Fuse#8 (early electric petcock circuit) and wondering if it really reads the FI circuit correctly.

Another topic, I know . . .

So, I had to go back and try to understand Kiwi_Roy's Go_Winkie set-up I added to Fuse#8 and figure out how to use it.

It does not read the fuel/ignition circuit of Fuse#2/Relay#5 exactly as I recalled. Just not that simple  . .  .

[No Go_Winkie indicator could also be a battery positive open.]

[LowRyter]

Some of us just wiggle all the fuses and relays and spray contact cleaner over everything.  

The next step is shake those chicken bones and dance across the driveway.  I haven't gotten to the sacrifice offerings.  

[docc]

"Wiggle Test" is something I learned from a book on "Preparing the Ford Sierra for Motorsport" (The US Merkur XR4Ti). That thing made the V11 look like the pinnacle of engineering and design success.

What the relay/fuse wiggle will not find are the nefarious, hidden spade connectors under the fuse block for Fuses #1/ECU and #2/Fuel/Ignition.  One of those jiggles loose and it can drive you mad.

[stewgnu]

That’s a good one to know!  All sneakily hidden away tsk!

[MartyNZ]

I put a piece of silicon foam between the relays to reduce movement, and a slid a piece of split rubber hose over the seat latch cable. I don't know if it helped much, but it didn't make things any worse. See bottom left of picture. 

[guzziart]

Hi,

I see your interesting discussion on the under seat electrical and felt compelled to ask a few questions.  

I have an 03 V11 LeMans that I'm trying get roadworthy by performing needed routine maintenance tasks... everything works & it runs just fine.  However, after spending some time around the battery... cleaning connections, I noticed one of the 14ga. ground wires (one of several crimped to a ring terminal) had some of the insulation burned off of it.  The wire is burned throughout the harness... I suspect, it is part of the circuit that grounds the ECU housing (also off of that same wire is the cam timing sensor shielding ground).  Without removing the tail section and stripping the wire harness to determine where else this one wire goes, I am hoping that someone here might have some insight about this circuit.  I think at some point a dead short occured between battery+  to  the ECU housing and possibly resulting in this ground wire getting cooked.  Although there is no evidence (burned ECU housing, etc.), I am having trouble determining how else this wire could have burned.  Thoughts? 

If one of you guys knows whether the ECU ground wire is connected to anything other than the timing sensor shield at the ECU & multi wire ring terminal at battery negative, I would greatly appreciate hearing from you.

I've been lurking on your forum for several weeks now and the information that I have found here has been a big help.  Sorry I hijacked your discussion.  

Thanks for reading,

Art

[stewgnu]

I found that when I tied the latch cable to the subframe it altered the path so it now loops around well away from the relays.  Good idea about cushioning with a scrap of squishy though!

[docc]

1 hour ago, guzziart said:

Hi,

I see your interesting discussion on the under seat electrical and felt compelled to ask a few questions.  

I have an 03 V11 LeMans that I'm trying get roadworthy by performing needed routine maintenance tasks... everything works & it runs just fine.  However, after spending some time around the battery... cleaning connections, I noticed one of the 14ga. ground wires (one of several crimped to a ring terminal) had some of the insulation burned off of it.  The wire is burned throughout the harness... I suspect, it is part of the circuit that grounds the ECU housing (also off of that same wire is the cam timing sensor shielding ground).  Without removing the tail section and stripping the wire harness to determine where else this one wire goes, I am hoping that someone here might have some insight about this circuit.  I think at some point a dead short occured between battery+  to  the ECU housing and possibly resulting in this ground wire getting cooked.  Although there is no evidence (burned ECU housing, etc.), I am having trouble determining how else this wire could have burned.  Thoughts? 

If one of you guys knows whether the ECU ground wire is connected to anything other than the timing sensor shield at the ECU & multi wire ring terminal at battery negative, I would greatly appreciate hearing from you.

I've been lurking on your forum for several weeks now and the information that I have found here has been a big help.  Sorry I hijacked your discussion.  

Thanks for reading,

Art

The most likely culprit that would melt up the ground side of the harness is a corroded, failed main grounding point behind the seat latch lock at the rear of the gearbox on the right, perhaps along with corroded/loose/failed battery terminals.

This fail can go really badly for the minimal grounding back through the harness along the frame . .

[guzziart]

Stewgnu & Docc,

Thanks for the quick response!

The ground connections at the battery were poor, the main ground point at the GB was clean but loose (imo).  Based on the main ground being loose, I'm surprised I don't have more wire damage.

However, I'm trying to understand why the ground wire at the ECU burned.  How did high current flow from the ECU housing (that is mounted on electrically insolated vibration dampeners) back to the battery negative terminal?  None of the other ground wiring on the 2 multi wire ring terminals at battery negative terminal are burned, only the one wire that goes to the ECU housing is burned.  I guess that is why I think there was a dead short from the batt+ to the ECU housing at some point in time, possibly a failed jump start attempt.

I'm trying to determine if this over current damage is limited to this particular section of wire from batt neg. to ECU housing ground or more wide spread like in your photo of burned wiring at the TB.

Thanks Again,

Art