New tank questions

[Grim]

Hi,

If I were to make my own fuel tank, there would be a few things that I might question:

1. I had originally planned to re-use my fuel cap, but the vent tubes running through the tank would be awful to try and replicate. Would I be better off using a different filler from some other bike (annoying to have to use 2 different keys), or could you modify the existing filler to vent "normally".

2. Since I have free reign over the final tank layout, would a straight copy of my external pump tank be sensible, or would anyone do some tidying up? Perhaps stick an common in-tank pump  in there from a Japanese bike instead, or smooth out the top and lose the chin pad?

Thanks for your input.

 

[swooshdave]

I think you could work around the vent issue.

Id want to make a 850 Lemans style tank if I were going through the trouble. I posted about such a thing a while ago.

[docc]

A long known field expedient for a blocked V11 tank vent is to simply pry out the rubber seal (it's not exactly an "O-ring") on the bottom of the cap which, essentially causes it to vent "normally."

[swooshdave]

 

[Lucky Phil]

21 hours ago, Grim said:

Hi,

If I were to make my own fuel tank, there would be a few things that I might question:

1. I had originally planned to re-use my fuel cap, but the vent tubes running through the tank would be awful to try and replicate. Would I be better off using a different filler from some other bike (annoying to have to use 2 different keys), or could you modify the existing filler to vent "normally".

2. Since I have free reign over the final tank layout, would a straight copy of my external pump tank be sensible, or would anyone do some tidying up? Perhaps stick an common in-tank pump  in there from a Japanese bike instead, or smooth out the top and lose the chin pad?

Thanks for your input.

 

The best solution if you are going to make a tank from scratch is to use the pump/filter/regulator and mount plate assy from one of the later v11's with the in tank pump. This keeps the regulated pressure standard and tidies up the fuel hoses around the engine. using a pump and reg assy from a Japanese bike seriously complicates matters. 

As for venting and cap, well there are a gazillion different aftermarket cap solutions out there quite cheap, take your pick. Same for the venting. The simplest solution is a small fitting on the front of the tank with an in line check valve to a small remote catch tank ( I used to use old small plastic pill bottles) or dump to the ground such as we used to run on race bikes a few years ago. Once again a million affordable options out there.

Ciao   

[swooshdave]

I think the idea of using the cap was to keep the same key locking option.

[Lucky Phil]

13 minutes ago, swooshdave said:

I think the idea of using the cap was to keep the same key locking option.

I would forget the keyed cap and use a nice race cap. I have one on my bike. You can even buy race style caps these days with a dedicated small tool key that you keep on your key ring if you worry about people stealing fuel or such things.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Fuel-Filler-Cover-Gas-Tank-Cap-w-Key-For-Suzuki-GSXR-1000-600-GSXR750-Hayabusa/264583557906?hash=item3d9a68b312:g:2rgAAOSw3fFeCcxK

Ciao 

[Lucky Phil]

8 hours ago, docc said:

A long known field expedient for a blocked V11 tank vent is to simply pry out the rubber seal (it's not exactly an "O-ring") on the bottom of the cap which, essentially causes it to vent "normally."

True docc but that relies on the vented fuel having an escape route and in the case of a V11 that route is the tank cap recess drain.

Ciao   

[Grim]

Firstly, thanks for all the input.

Yes, the idea was to keep the standard cap because I live in England and a locking cap is sensible. 

I also was thinking I would like to replicate the current tank mounts/holes, that way if I need to make another one, or someone else wants one, the tank will accept the Guzzi cap.

A race cap with a locking tool would be an acceptable solution though, although I dislike having things on keyrings!

 

1 hour ago, Lucky Phil said:

The best solution if you are going to make a tank from scratch is to use the pump/filter/regulator and mount plate assy from one of the later v11's with the in tank pump. This keeps the regulated pressure standard and tidies up the fuel hoses around the engine. using a pump and reg assy from a Japanese bike seriously complicates matters. 

 

Can I ask why? If it's a 43psi Suzuki pump or something like that, is it very different to the Guzzi pump? The pressure is the same, but I might be over simplifying things.

My only thoughts on the Guzzi pump is that it requires a very large hole, and that they seem expensive to buy. A Suzuki pump is relatively cheap in comparison.

[gstallons]

The pressure & volume are ( simplifying things ) the only concern for fuel pumps .

[Lucky Phil]

47 minutes ago, Grim said:

Firstly, thanks for all the input.

Yes, the idea was to keep the standard cap because I live in England and a locking cap is sensible. 

I also was thinking I would like to replicate the current tank mounts/holes, that way if I need to make another one, or someone else wants one, the tank will accept the Guzzi cap.

A race cap with a locking tool would be an acceptable solution though, although I dislike having things on keyrings!

 

Can I ask why? If it's a 43psi Suzuki pump or something like that, is it very different to the Guzzi pump? The pressure is the same, but I might be over simplifying things.

My only thoughts on the Guzzi pump is that it requires a very large hole, and that they seem expensive to buy. A Suzuki pump is relatively cheap in comparison.

Some of the later injection systems are a variable pressure arrangement that vary the speed of the pump via the ecu as a primary control of pressure and therefore dont require a return circuit and regulator but you could in principle use any pressure source and reg you like,BUT take it from me after years of experience with these sort of things its wise where possible to not mix and match components from different manufacturers and systems to this extent. If you use the later V11 system you take out a whole lot of possible variables on a whole lot of levels and when and if you run into an issue at least you know you are dealing with a system that is proven to work on your specific installation.

A large access hole is an advantage not a disadvantage foe maintenance and possible repairs. If you want the cheapest possible solution then go with an external pump,reg and filter for sure. Just 2 simple and cheap spigots to incorporate into the tank.

Ciao 

 

[Lucky Phil]

38 minutes ago, gstallons said:

The pressure & volume are ( simplifying things ) the only concern for fuel pumps .

True but as with all things its the details that make or break. So some of the issues in that regard are pump dimensions, pump mounting requirements, outlet and inlet sizes compared to the tank, pump inlet and outlet orientation, etc,etc. it always looks easy on paper but can turn into a head @#!#$# when it comes time to actually do the install. Then if you do have a running issue initially you are always wondering whether you failed to consider something with the new hybrid system and you start digging yourself a hole. 

My bike is an example, seems simple sourcing a new/replacement fuel filter to fit but believe me it took a lot of research mainly because of the space requirements and i still took and educated guess on the filtering requirements.

Ciao     

[docc]

It really has been surprising just how tightly packaged the V11 is.

To fabricate a fuel tank (or install a V10 Hi-cam!) is truly an amazement!

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, docc said:

It really has been surprising just how tightly packaged the V11 is.

To fabricate a fuel tank (or install a V10 Hi-cam!) is truly an amazement!

Yes docc, the main issue with the V11 is the frame design. A single spine doesnt leave a lot of options for routing wiring and cramming in things like fuel pumps and filters etc thats why I think the later in tank pump arrangement is a bonus. Gets a couple of large bulky items out of the way and simplifies the plumbing and makes tank removal less messy.

The V11 though comes from the same era of design as the 851 Ducati which was literally a frame, engine, swingarm forks and wheels set on a lift and they then built everything around that.Old school ad hock design which makes them messy. The 916 Ducati was a massive leap in this regard as it was CAD designed and fitted together like a watch by comparison.

 Ciao 

[Grim]

9 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

 Gets a couple of large bulky items out of the way and simplifies the plumbing and makes tank removal less messy.

As I need to make a mold, then a plug of the tank ( before making a final mold then laying up carbon fibre/kevlar), I would need to source a pump and the mounting plate first (my spare tank that I am taking the initial mold from is an external pump model) in order to rework the plug to feature a larger flat area and cut-out for the internal pump. I guess I can't avoid this step if I want to get rid of the chin pad anyway!

I take it the wiring from the external pump is easy enough to graft on to the internal pump??