Roper Plate Poll

[Lucky Phil]

Just now, swooshdave said:

You’re telling me a Griso is only 3kg heavier than a V11 Sport or just the swingarm is?

The whole bike

Ciao

[footgoose]

that oem blunderbuss exhaust is probably 6 or 8kg. swap it out and yer laughin'.  a bit longer in wheel base than a v11, and I'll bet it's a smooth sweeper gobbler.

[pete roper]

5 hours ago, po18guy said:

Green, being envious of silver...I have that on good authority.

But, in the CARC the shaft runs through the swinger, does it not? If so, that in itself is a huge leap. Does it have CV joints too? 

No, it still uses Hookes couplings the same as they always have. The reactive system is not very different to that of the Spineys it's just that rather than the bevelbox floating on the rear wheel spindle with the reaction rod going from box to frame with the CARC set up the crownwheel and pinion are carried in a reactive bridge Which is contained within the bevelbox castings and the crownwheel support bearings perform the function of wheel bearings as well as the wheel is bolted directly to the crownwheel carrier. The bevelbox part of the system is still heavy because, at the end of the day it is still a bloody great gearbox but it is considerably more compact than a Spiney bevelbox. The reason for the seemingly massive swingarm is that the reactive, 'Up and down' movement of the pinion as it reacts to power and suspension inputs has to take place inside the swingarm. The arm itself is very light.

The driveshaft is bulkier than that used on the Spineys because it incorporates the large rubber torsion bush which is the only driveline shock absorber in the 8V transmission.

[Lucky Phil]

8 minutes ago, pete roper said:

No, it still uses Hookes couplings the same as they always have. The reactive system is not very different to that of the Spineys it's just that rather than the bevelbox floating on the rear wheel spindle with the reaction rod going from box to frame with the CARC set up the crownwheel and pinion are carried in a reactive bridge Which is contained within the bevelbox castings and the crownwheel support bearings perform the function of wheel bearings as well as the wheel is bolted directly to the crownwheel carrier. The bevelbox part of the system is still heavy because, at the end of the day it is still a bloody great gearbox but it is considerably more compact than a Spiney bevelbox. The reason for the seemingly massive swingarm is that the reactive, 'Up and down' movement of the pinion as it reacts to power and suspension inputs has to take place inside the swingarm. The arm itself is very light.

The driveshaft is bulkier than that used on the Spineys because it incorporates the large rubber torsion bush which is the only driveline shock absorber in the 8V transmission.

The main part of the bulky look of the V11 bevel box is the largely decorative shroud to conceal the cush drive thats incorporated in the housing. It is heavy though. As everybody must know by now I'd rather they turn the drive 90 degrees in the gearbox and do the rest by a chain. Cheap and functional and bullet proof and less losses than a shaft.

Ciao 

[swooshdave]

12 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

The whole bike

Ciao

I don’t believe you.

i rode a Griso and then got back into my V11 Sport. The difference was night and day. The V11 Sport felt like a 600cc sport bike. 

[pete roper]

V11 has a shorter wheelbase and skinnier tyres and will steer quicker. Also as delivered the Griso's forks are under sprung and over damped and they are run far too low in the yokes. You can't see very well in the pic of mine but the forks, which are Sachs off an RSV4  with Matris internals are lifted to six rings through the yokes, that makes a big difference and next time the Matris shock is rebuilt it will get spaced to lift the rear by an inch which improves things even further. The original Sachs shock is once again under sprung and over damped and the valving and damper screws needles are very coarse.

Chances are any Griso you have ridden was poorly mapped and quite possibly incorrectly tuned. I remain gobsmacked how even now, fourteen years after the system started being used, the number of W5AM bikes I see that have been seriously messed up because the people who are working on them don't have a clue, not just owners but *Mechanics* as well! There has never been an easier system to tune but still people screw it up and in a lot of cases once screwed it is very difficult to unscrew it!

If the early, 1100, Griso had a major failing it was the de-tuning by fitting smaller throttlebodies than the V11 and, oddly, the greater attention to balancing components. The 1100 is in such a high state of refinement that in stock trim it has lost some of the visceral anger of the V11 donk. That was well and truly addressed with the 1200 but it was let down by at first dreadful and eventually better but still uninspiring mapping and of course it was all for nought due to the dreaded flat tappet fiasco! Once rollerised and mapped correctly the 1200 is an awesome powerplant! A true 'Turbo-Tractor' with torque from nothing to rev limiter and a genuine 100 hp at the rear wheel readily available, (Although getting much more out of the motor is difficult due to its cylinder head design and combustion chamber and the cam timing. Best I've seen on they Dyno on mine was 104. Last time, (Years ago!) I dyno'ed it with its current map I got 102. Every stock 8V I've ever put on a dyno has made 96 on the nail. I'm sure that with some cam and head work you could get a few more hp if you're into bragging rights but in doing so you'd sacrifice the linear torque curve and pure driveability.

I think Phil's weight estimate, at least for the 8V, is probably a bit optimistic but it doesn't weigh that much more than a V11. Anyway, at the end of the day both designs are now obsolete replaced by the insipid feebleness of the V85 powerplant. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice. It's not a matter of better or worse, just different.

[docc]

50 minutes ago, pete roper said:

V11 has a shorter wheelbase and skinnier tyres and will steer quicker. Also as delivered the Griso's forks are under sprung and over damped and they are run far too low in the yokes. You can't see very well in the pic of mine but the forks, which are Sachs off an RSV4  with Matris internals are lifted to six rings through the yokes, that makes a big difference and next time the Matris shock is rebuilt it will get spaced to lift the rear by an inch which improves things even further. The original Sachs shock is once again under sprung and over damped and the valving and damper screws needles are very coarse.

Chances are any Griso you have ridden was poorly mapped and quite possibly incorrectly tuned. I remain gobsmacked how even now, fourteen years after the system started being used, the number of W5AM bikes I see that have been seriously messed up because the people who are working on them don't have a clue, not just owners but *Mechanics* as well! There has never been an easier system to tune but still people screw it up and in a lot of cases once screwed it is very difficult to unscrew it!

If the early, 1100, Griso had a major failing it was the de-tuning by fitting smaller throttlebodies than the V11 and, oddly, the greater attention to balancing components. The 1100 is in such a high state of refinement that in stock trim it has lost some of the visceral anger of the V11 donk. That was well and truly addressed with the 1200 but it was let down by at first dreadful and eventually better but still uninspiring mapping and of course it was all for nought due to the dreaded flat tappet fiasco! Once rollerised and mapped correctly the 1200 is an awesome powerplant! A true 'Turbo-Tractor' with torque from nothing to rev limiter and a genuine 100 hp at the rear wheel readily available, (Although getting much more out of the motor is difficult due to its cylinder head design and combustion chamber and the cam timing. Best I've seen on they Dyno on mine was 104. Last time, (Years ago!) I dyno'ed it with its current map I got 102. Every stock 8V I've ever put on a dyno has made 96 on the nail. I'm sure that with some cam and head work you could get a few more hp if you're into bragging rights but in doing so you'd sacrifice the linear torque curve and pure driveability.

I think Phil's weight estimate, at least for the 8V, is probably a bit optimistic but it doesn't weigh that much more than a V11. Anyway, at the end of the day both designs are now obsolete replaced by the insipid feebleness of the V85 powerplant. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice. It's not a matter of better or worse, just different.

I just had to highlight that in green for the . . . well, you know who you are . . . 

[4corsa]

"under-sprung and over-damped", that was part of Colin Chapman's formula for making Lotus the best handling cars on earth back in the day. Of course, developing super lightweight packages helped quite a bit as well (not part of Guzzi's formula)

[swooshdave]

I’d like to see real world weights on the two bikes. I believe the factory numbers about as much as I believe the factory hp numbers.

[docc]

56 minutes ago, swooshdave said:

I’d like to see real world weights on the two bikes. I believe the factory numbers about as much as I believe the factory hp numbers.

"Real world weights" are not easy to come by or derive. Even diligent efforts have to be qualified with all the various vagueries that enter the equation . . .

[Chuck]

One day I weighed the Monza, AeroLario, and Mighty Scura on some aircraft scales that we use for weight and balance calculations. Naturally, I *forgot* to write them down. I posted them on WG, and now can't find that thread. I *was* surprised at how little more the Lario weighed than the Monza, and how little more the Scura weighed than the Lario, though. *From failing memory,* the Mighty Scura was 495 lbs with an empty fuel tank, though. I thought it would be more.

[4corsa]

Did the Scura have the original exhaust or Mistrals?  8 lb potential savings right there.

[Lucky Phil]

13 hours ago, swooshdave said:

I don’t believe you.

i rode a Griso and then got back into my V11 Sport. The difference was night and day. The V11 Sport felt like a 600cc sport bike. 

I just googled them both 

Ciao

[swooshdave]

1 hour ago, Lucky Phil said:

I just googled them both 

Ciao

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/moto-guzzi-motorcycles-griso-8v-se-short-shift-review/

Here you know they actually weighed it and didn't rely on Italian marketing.

557/531 lb. (tank full/empty)

 

 

https://www.motorcyclistonline.com/moto-guzzi-v11-sport-road-test/

Weight    546 lb. (wet) 511 lb. (fuel tank empty)

So they are saying 20 lbs difference.

[80CX100]

14 hours ago, swooshdave said:

i rode a Griso and then got back into my V11 Sport. The difference was night and day. The V11 Sport felt like a 600cc sport bike. 

I only have a 15kms test ride on my V11 Lemans, but I agree with Dave; compared to my Griso, albeit with risers & higher seat, the V11 felt like a nimbler smaller sport bike underneath me.

fwiw

Kelly