Timing Gear set

[docc]

Very exciting to be tracking the shipment of these custom-made parts from Joe in the UK! 

I have concerns about removing and replacing my original, undisturbed timing chest. I'll review this thread thoroughly before that tear-down.

Joe raised an interesting question about the "sump" of the timing chest and how it drains relative to earlier ("Round Fin") big blocks. V11 have the wide sump spacer that offers the oil cooler line connections. I do not understand what to expect in the "sump" of the V11 timing chest: does it drain back to the crankcase? Should it drain and the holes could be blocked with sludge?  Should the "drains"for the timing chest be modified on the V11?

Joe (Caruso) mentioned that @pete roper has spoken to this difference between the earlier, round fin, timing chests and the later, square fin timing chests as on the V11.

So, what gives?

[Lucky Phil]

2 minutes ago, docc said:

Very exciting to be tracking the shipment of these custom-made parts from Joe in the UK! 

I have concerns about removing and replacing my original, undisturbed timing chest. I'll review this thread thoroughly before that tear-down.

Joe raised an interesting question about the "sump" of the timing chest and how it drains relative to earlier ("Round Fin") big blocks. V11 have the wide sump spacer that offers the oil cooler line connections. I do not understand what to expect in the "sump" of the V11 timing chest: does it drain back to the crankcase? Should it drain and the holes could be blocked with sludge?  Should the "drains"for the timing chest be modified on the V11?

Joe (Caruso) mentioned that @pete roper has spoken to this difference between the earlier, round fin, timing chests and the later, square fin timing chests as on the V11.

So, what gives?

What were Joes concerns?. I looked at this gave it some serious thought. Remember the Daytona engines use the wide sump with gear drive and the same crankcase drain system as the 2 valve engine. The V11's retain some oil in the bottom of the front timing chest area due to the location of the drain holes some way up the front wall. It's no big issue though as there is a lot of oil flowing into this area from the front camshaft bearing overflow, the front main bearing and the oil from the oil pump bearing. This oil simply raises the level until it overflows into the drain holes and the oil pump gear is low in the timing chest stirring up the oil there. I didn't see any great issues with sludge in my engine after 42,000klms.  

This is why I recommend after after the gears and front cover are installed that 300ml or so of oil is poured into the front timing chest vial the ignition sensor hole to provide some gear lube until the bearing overflow fills the area. I also give all the gear faces a very light coat of grease on all the teeth with a brush.

Ciao

[docc]

Ok , wow, 300 ml is a lot of oil to pour into that space, it seems (to me).  I remember your saying this and intend to make it part of my "procedure."

Joe knows about my relationship with this forum and has given me permission to share his correspondence. This dude has been/ IS awesome!

[Lucky Phil]

Here's an image docc of the timing chest. Note the lower drain back hole on the left of the image and the other 2 vent holes. Note in the second image the oil pump gear is below the oil level and picks up oil and distributes the oil to the crankshaft gear and also the cam gear along with "Vent" lubrication.

 

[Lucky Phil]

3 minutes ago, docc said:

Ok , wow, 300 ml is a lot of oil to pour into that space, it seems (to me).  I remember your saying this and intend to make it part of my "procedure."

Joe knows about my relationship with this forum and has given me permission to share his correspondence. This dude has been/ IS awesome!

Any excess will just overflow into the sump docc.

Ciao 

[docc]

Here is Joe's comment to me. He looks to be reconciling changes between the earlier Round fin motor and the Square fin V11 ?

"Hi Docc

Hopefully the parts should not take too long to arrive and at least they will

be there with you ready for when you wish to do the job.

Out of interest and just in case this has not been mentioned before on the V11 Forum

I was having a discussion with a Customer Friend in Spain about the

Round barrel motors and mentioned plugging the lower oil drain holes in the crankcase

to provide a small sump of oil for the Oil Pump Timing Gear to pick up as extra lubrication

which Pete Roper has mentioned before just like the square barrel motors are already.

The V11 has this same sump of oil behind the timing cover which does not really get drained

so do you find you get a build up of sludge in there?

The reason i ask is because my bikes are round barrel bikes and will be plugging the holes up too.

i thought i would share this link on which was sent to me by the Spanish customer

as his friend was trying to make his aluminium gears last longer by raising the oil level in the 

crankcase and also enabling to drain it.

which is a simple mod to enable draining the Timing cover Oil Resevoir by just

drilling a hole and removing one screw with an o ring.

as you can see on the link photos  and 3 minutes into the video

very simple i thought which could be applied to your bikes too if anyone prefers.

https://guzzistas.mforos.com/656247/13075318-por-si-a-alguien-le-interesa/?pag=2

All the best

Joe"

[docc]

If I read Joe's concerns correctly, the V11 motor has addressed this while the earlier "round barrel" motors might benefit from a modification?

[Lucky Phil]

Ok docc. I think for steel gears and this is an overkill personally and probably even alloy gears. Daytona alloy gears shit as they are dont exactly wear out at the drop of a hat. The other thing to bear in mind is oil levels that high promote a lot of "churning" of the oil and frothing and heating AND drag. It's one of those things from a backyard mechanics perspective seems a good idea but in engineering terms probably doesn't hold up.

The oil pump drive gear will distribute more than enough oil to the other gears for lubrication. You can have too much oil around the gears. Think about your gearbox gears. They dont have the gearbox half full of oil do they because it's counter productive and not needed. Pratt and Whitney experimented with a "geared fan" on their jet engines years ago, so it had a reduction gear assy to drive the fan on the front of the engine. They had big issues with overheating oil and gear failure as the gears were half submerged in oil. All this churning did was overheat the oil. The cure? get ride of the gears swimming in oil and provide a limited amount of oil directed to the gear faces where it's needed.

It's a bit like oil pressure requirements. You only need sufficient pressure and any more is not only a waste of power but also has other compromises you don't need.

Ciao      

[docc]

I get it that the gears might be "overkill."  Yet, they are not that much more money than addressing my aged cam timing chain/tensioner with an elegant and enthusiast derived solution. I tend to support these efforts whole-heartedly.

The query Joe brings up appears to be about changes to the draining of the timing chest between the earlier round fin/barrel motors and the later square fin/ cylinder motors. I know nothing about this.

If I read his correspondence correctly, the earlier BigBlocks drained the oil from the timing chest at a lower level and the later (square fin) motors trapped more oil in the chest? He looks to be inquiring if this greater "sumping" in the timing chest manifests in more "sludge" trapped there.

I recall a report of sludge in the bottom of a V11 timing chest.

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, docc said:

So, do the earlier "round barrel" Guzzi BigBlocks hold too much oil in the timing chest and the later "SquareFin" (like the V11) address this with better timing chest drains?

Well reading Joes email and what Peter mentioned it seemed to be the other way around. I'm not familiar with the round engines crankcases docc.

BTW the "sludge" issue is another overblow thing as well. Just because areas of the engine hide a bit of oil that eventually ends up black is of no immediate concern. If you can wipe away the oil with your finger and see the crankcase metal this isn't sludge. Sludge is stuff you need to scrape off with mechanical means. It may eventually get there one day if you're slack with your oil changes but black stained oil isn't sludge. I've seen a bit of this sludge silliness on youtube lately by supposed experts. 

 

Ciao

 

[Pressureangle]

15 hours ago, docc said:

I get it that the gears might be "overkill."  Yet, they are not that much more money than addressing my aged cam timing chain/tensioner with an elegant and enthusiast derived solution. I tend to support these efforts whole-heartedly.

The query Joe brings up appears to be about changes to the draining of the timing chest between the earlier round fin/barrel motors and the later square fin/ cylinder motors. I know nothing about this.

If I read his correspondence correctly, the earlier BigBlocks drained the oil from the timing chest at a lower level and the later (square fin) motors trapped more oil in the chest? He looks to be inquiring if this greater "sumping" in the timing chest manifests in more "sludge" trapped there.

I recall a report of sludge in the bottom of a V11 timing chest.

Having absolutely no idea when the original factory gears were swapped for chain, I'd suggest that the oil level was raised to add lubrication to the chain that the gears didn't need. Consider, in 3 gears there are only 2 points of contact. In a chain, there are... a LOT. Both within the chain and upon the sprockets.

[pete roper]

When I was running steel gears in my old roundfin engine I blocked the drain holes to the sump in the bottom of the chest and drilled a couple in the back wall of the chest so the pump gear ran in a bath and fed oil up the train. Was it needed? I have no idea but it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Not being as familiar as many here I didn't know that the V11 and early Hi-Cam motors used revised drainage from the timing chest. Earlier Tonti squarefin engines still used the drains at the bottom of the chest though.

With the Nuovo 8V's I also can't remember what the drainage set up is but I have a block on the bench so I can check when I next go in to the old workshop. That may be a few days off though as we went down to Melbourne to visit #2 son on Monday and spent Tuesday evening with him. This morning he was feeling shithouse so he tested himself and sure enough he's stuffed full of Covid! Now we were outside for most of the time we were with him but we'll isolate for a few days to avoid the risk of infecting anyone else if we are carrying so block inspection may take a a bit longer than it normally would....

[Chuck]

Good luck with that, Pete..

[po18guy]

Being the prayerful type, I will send some prayers for your #2 son.

[Lucky Phil]

12 hours ago, pete roper said:

When I was running steel gears in my old roundfin engine I blocked the drain holes to the sump in the bottom of the chest and drilled a couple in the back wall of the chest so the pump gear ran in a bath and fed oil up the train. Was it needed? I have no idea but it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Not being as familiar as many here I didn't know that the V11 and early Hi-Cam motors used revised drainage from the timing chest. Earlier Tonti squarefin engines still used the drains at the bottom of the chest though.

With the Nuovo 8V's I also can't remember what the drainage set up is but I have a block on the bench so I can check when I next go in to the old workshop. That may be a few days off though as we went down to Melbourne to visit #2 son on Monday and spent Tuesday evening with him. This morning he was feeling shithouse so he tested himself and sure enough he's stuffed full of Covid! Now we were outside for most of the time we were with him but we'll isolate for a few days to avoid the risk of infecting anyone else if we are carrying so block inspection may take a a bit longer than it normally would....

Good luck with the Covid Pete.

Ciao