Timing Gear set

[TommyA]

He replied that he meant junk steel/aluminum gears, not Joe's gears.  

[80CX100]

21 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

Really? OK, lets hear em.

Ciao

Posted 6 hours ago

"Hey Docc,    You're right I should have added the qualifier, " not to install poor quality timing gears."   

    Iirc I think our bike engines evolved, from a design originally based around a good set of timing gears, and do well with a good quality refit.

    Quality comes at a price;  I've never looked hard at them, but my impression is good timing gears are either rare or expensive.

     I'm not into rare and expensive, so I cheaped out on my bike and cut my own timing chain from Mercebes Benz stock, partly due to ease of sourcing in Canada.

     fwiw ymmv

     Kelly"

 

      Hey Phil,     As noted, I should have expanded on my response, which I did, fwiw

      Kelly

[Lucky Phil]

8 minutes ago, 80CX100 said:

Posted 6 hours ago

"Hey Docc,    You're right I should have added the qualifier, " not to install poor quality timing gears."   

    Iirc I think our bike engines evolved, from a design originally based around a good set of timing gears, and do well with a good quality refit.

    Quality comes at a price;  I've never looked hard at them, but my impression is good timing gears are either rare or expensive.

     I'm not into rare and expensive, so I cheaped out on my bike and cut my own timing chain from Mercebes Benz stock, partly due to ease of sourcing in Canada.

     fwiw ymmv

     Kelly"

 

      Hey Phil,     As noted, I should have expanded on my response, which I did, fwiw

      Kelly

Ok I understand. It's either quality gears (only Joe makes them to my knowledge) original steel Guzzi gears from the pre chain days, if you can get a decent set or the chain.

Nothing really wrong with the chain except for the usual chain related issues and considerations of course.

Ciao 

[docc]

6 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

Nothing really wrong with the chain except for the usual chain related issues and considerations of course.

Ciao 

Hey, LuckyPhil, could you elaborate on that?  I suppose, "at some point" I should pay some attention to my (amazing) motor and maybe even have a look-see inside the timing chest.

[Lucky Phil]

28 minutes ago, docc said:

Hey, LuckyPhil, could you elaborate on that?  I suppose, "at some point" I should pay some attention to my (amazing) motor and maybe even have a look-see inside the timing chest.

Just the wear of the chain,sprockets and tensioner and associated timing shift. Plus the fact you have another failure point with the tensioner and when a chain is let wear badly they generally start contacting cases and producing metal. Then of course there is ease of maintenance. 

I was also surprised that I needed to crank the idle down 200 rpm on my engine when I fitted the gears which i assumed meant that there was less friction but it may have been timing related, dont know.

Once you have a quality set of gears they should outlast the engine with regular oil and filter changes so there's no real wear related issues to consider. maintenance is easier in that if you want to remove the oil pump or cam retainer flange your not messing about with tensioners and pulling chains etc you just pull the retaining nut for what your working on etc.

The only real advantages I can see for a chain is cost and maybe they are better able to handle debris in the engine oil if your a slack servicer or you have a significant internal failure the causes contamination.

There's a reason high end engines use gear drives. You wont find an F1 of MotoGP engine using chain driven cams or chain driven anything really. 

Like gas turbine engine accessory drive gearboxes, no chains. 

Ferrari

Ducati V4 Desmosedici

 

Ciao

[Lucky Phil]

Just came across this article. Looks like Kevin and I are on the same page.

 https://www.cycleworld.com/story/bikes/about-motorcycle-engine-cam-drive-systems/

Ciao

[po18guy]

Love the straight-cut gear whine. The price for such a limited edition, custom set, not so much. So, maybe the upgraded cam chain adjuster and we'll call it good.  

[80CX100]

     Hey Phil,     Tks for posting the article and the photos

    The innards on some of those engines are like beautiful works of art.

     It's hard to believe that something that looks like the workings of a fine Swiss watch, can power a race bike , screaming around a track.

     

     Kelly

[Lucky Phil]

10 hours ago, 80CX100 said:

     Hey Phil,     Tks for posting the article and the photos

    The innards on some of those engines are like beautiful works of art.

     It's hard to believe that something that looks like the workings of a fine Swiss watch, can power a race bike , screaming around a track.

     

     Kelly 

Yes it's engineering art. I love engineering, it's science and engineering together that's propelled mankind to where we are now.

I was watching a doco the other night on the building of the English canal system in the 18th and 19th century and the men that engineered it and any of those great engineers from back then would be brilliant engineers today as well if you could resurrect them.

Ciao  

[Vic]

Another great read that I  stumbled upon, I  just purchased a 74 Eldorado, thats needing a chain tensioner/chain,my plan is to install the the gear setup and eliminate the chain altogether. 

Why did Guzzi drop the gears and go with ,what seems to be a lesser chain setup?

Also from what I've read they had three different gear setups, the difference being the number of teeth (gear pitch)? On the three different sets.

Is their any advantage to more or less teeth on the gear sets?

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated!

[pete roper]

Probably the reason for change was the simple one, cost.

In all honesty with your Eldo I'd have to ask why go to the trouble of swapping? A chain with a decent Valtek type tensioner will last at least 120,000km. Are you really likely to ride a nearly 50 year old bike that far in your lifetime?

Id be far more concerned about establishing if it still has chrome bores and if it does? Fixing that before I worried about the cam drive. You'll also find that if you are looking for a set of the original Guzzi gears the oil pump gear is different from memory, straight shaft on one set up, tapered shaft on the other. I might be mistaken on that, dealing with that stuff was a lifetime ago.

Really though on a 50 year old vehicle worrying about the cam drive is a bit like worrying about the mouse hole in the skirting board when you're sitting in a room with a hungry tiger!😂

[Vic]

Thanks for your input Pete,your right in that I'm probably over thinking this whole thing.

I bought the Eldorado from the "Guzzi doctor "in north Chicago, it's being shipped next week.

He reported that their is some chrome and rubber bits from the tensioner when he dropped the oil pan.

I've ordered a new set of 850 "Gilardoni" cylinder and piston kit to cover the chrome issue,( I  almost went with a big bore kit,but reason kicked in).

So now it's down to the timing problem.

Was 74 the first year for the change from gears to chain,and in the swap the cam changed from a tapered to a straight shaft ?

I guess I'll find out soon enough when I  tear into it.

The bike supposedly only has 35k miles on it. I've wanted one for a long time,and the prices are really skyrocketing, hopefully I haven't bitten off more then I  can handle buying one that needs some TLC.

Let the fun begin!

 

[X goose]

Hello Gear Heads,
Totally unnecessary and largely unseen...Just what my Italian beauty deserves!
 Besides gear drives are just cool ;-)

I put my name on the list for a set of Joe's gears. He needs a few more orders before the next run of v11 sets.
So give your Goose some love and order up a set!

joe.caruso@ntlworld.com

[Scud]

My 1989 LeMans 1000 has Caruso's gears. The previous owner said the bike started easier and ran smoother after the gears were installed. Plus, they sound cool.

What is a set going for these days? How many more orders does he need? 

[Weegie]

Got them in my 3 bikes

I also mail Joe on and off to talk all things Guzzi, he's a really good guy and Guzzi fanatic.

If you've got questions mail him and ask there's no obligation and he'll discuss pros and cons, he's very knowledgable

https://woodburymotomedia.com/moto-guzzi-timing-gears-by-joe-caruso/