Looking for Oil Pressure Data for Hi Cams & V11s

[Weegie]

I'm not holding out much hope here as very few mount a pressure gauge onto their bikes or even test it.

However if anybody out there has information from their motorcycle I'd be interested.

This all started with a HiCam I have and was related to both overheating and oil pressure, anybody who frequents Wild Goose should be well aware of the problem as I've posted about it until everybody there is sick to the back teeth with it.......................so I came here . I can't be bothered going into the details about the overheating, but I thought the overheating and low pressure were linked, now I'm starting to think that the low pressure isn't a problem at all and for close to 2 years I've been chasing a ghost.

Recently I've gained a little more information, but its left me with a whole raft of questions that leave me baffled and confused. Lucky Phil came onto WG and started to assist, nothing definitve came of that, except I gained a lot more knowledge about these engines and I'm grateful for all his insight and time that he invested.

Starting from what I'm used to 2 valve engines

4 bar (58 psi) relief pressure, cold oil idle 65 psi or a little above (I assume the relief valve gets overwhelmed and pressure builds a bit over the valve setpoint)

Hot running above 3k approx high 50s or low 60s psi

Hot idle 15-10 psi usually

Hi Cam

5 bar (72 psi) relief pressure (larger oil pump), cold idle 50-54 psi

Cold to 3k, approx 70 psi (that test was done on a stationary engine and turning the pump with a drill, from experience it doesn't matter much if the engine is rotating or not)

No hot data to speak of right now, as the bike was only run once and was overheating so I haven't got a data point where the temperature reached an equilibrium

So I start to chase the missing pressure, the relief valve is set higher and I'm at least 10 lower perhaps 15 psi.

I'll let Kevin_T chime in if he wants to give his side but he stated on page 5 of Phil's HiCam build thread he never seen the pressure higher that 53psi on a Centauro (another C kitted HiCam)

Then fortuitously a buddy tests his Hi Cam engine, all of these HiCams are C kitted, just for completeness

Cold idle 52-53psi

Blip on cold to 3k approx 70psi (actual running engine)

Let it get warm (but not stabilised just for a few minutes till the heads are warm, perhaps 10 minutes idling) 48psi

One more thing,

When I removed the rocker carriers (which also locate the cam followers) and left the head oil feed holes to the rocker exposed then cranked the bike the oil pressure on the gauge dropped from 50psi to 32, cold oil. These feeds do not appear to me to be that large, so the 18psi drop was a surprise.

The green arrows are the exposed feeds

I wonder is the pressure I'm seeing system wide or is the pressure switch tapping point I'm measuring the pressure from badly placed, it never was after all meant to really represent true system pressure.

The take for me is there probably nothing wrong with the pressure on my engine but I'm left wondering why the readings are so low.

The V11 went back from the Hi Cam's 21mm lobe pump to a 16mm but drives at a higher Crank/pump ratio and I hope to get some data on that soon

Anybody who had data they could add would be of interest to me and possibly to others

.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I have installed a gauge on a VII Sport, its tied in at the same point as the pressure switch and mounted on the steering damper bracket, yes the pressure is as you say/

I also have a gauge on my 72 Eldorado, it's tapped into the RH head oil feed and shows similar pressure when cold but drops down to 10 PSI at hot idle

[Lucky Phil]

9 hours ago, Weegie said:

I'm not holding out much hope here as very few mount a pressure gauge onto their bikes or even test it.

However if anybody out there has information from their motorcycle I'd be interested.

This all started with a HiCam I have and was related to both overheating and oil pressure, anybody who frequents Wild Goose should be well aware of the problem as I've posted about it until everybody there is sick to the back teeth with it.......................so I came here . I can't be bothered going into the details about the overheating, but I thought the overheating and low pressure were linked, now I'm starting to think that the low pressure isn't a problem at all and for close to 2 years I've been chasing a ghost.

Recently I've gained a little more information, but its left me with a whole raft of questions that leave me baffled and confused. Lucky Phil came onto WG and started to assist, nothing definitve came of that, except I gained a lot more knowledge about these engines and I'm grateful for all his insight and time that he invested.

Starting from what I'm used to 2 valve engines

4 bar (58 psi) relief pressure, cold oil idle 65 psi or a little above (I assume the relief valve gets overwhelmed and pressure builds a bit over the valve setpoint)

Hot running above 3k approx high 50s or low 60s psi

Hot idle 15-10 psi usually

Hi Cam

5 bar (72 psi) relief pressure (larger oil pump), cold idle 50-54 psi

Cold to 3k, approx 70 psi (that test was done on a stationary engine and turning the pump with a drill, from experience it doesn't matter much if the engine is rotating or not)

No hot data to speak of right now, as the bike was only run once and was overheating so I haven't got a data point where the temperature reached an equilibrium

So I start to chase the missing pressure, the relief valve is set higher and I'm at least 10 lower perhaps 15 psi.

I'll let Kevin_T chime in if he wants to give his side but he stated on page 5 of Phil's HiCam build thread he never seen the pressure higher that 53psi on a Centauro (another C kitted HiCam)

Then fortuitously a buddy tests his Hi Cam engine, all of these HiCams are C kitted, just for completeness

Cold idle 52-53psi

Blip on cold to 3k approx 70psi (actual running engine)

Let it get warm (but not stabilised just for a few minutes till the heads are warm, perhaps 10 minutes idling) 48psi

One more thing,

When I removed the rocker carriers (which also locate the cam followers) and left the head oil feed holes to the rocker exposed then cranked the bike the oil pressure on the gauge dropped from 50psi to 32, cold oil. These feeds do not appear to me to be that large, so the 18psi drop was a surprise.

The green arrows are the exposed feeds

I wonder is the pressure I'm seeing system wide or is the pressure switch tapping point I'm measuring the pressure from badly placed, it never was after all meant to really represent true system pressure.

The take for me is there probably nothing wrong with the pressure on my engine but I'm left wondering why the readings are so low.

The V11 went back from the Hi Cam's 21mm lobe pump to a 16mm but drives at a higher Crank/pump ratio and I hope to get some data on that soon

Anybody who had data they could add would be of interest to me and possibly to others

.

I know what the upper red arrow is pointing to John but whats the lower red arrow indicating? none of my 6 heads have any form of hole here.Is it porosity?

Ciao

[Weegie]

It would appear so Phil

I looked on the other head nothing.

Then checked it with a thin piece of bicycle cable and it appears closed but still deeper than I'd like and the cable bottoming is no guarantee that it still isn't a leak path

Any ideas on sealing, you think JB Weld would be sufficient or is a head removal and strip in my future?

John

 

[Chuck]

I'd give JB Weld a go. The tough part will be getting it clean enough for bonding. Trichloroethylene  would do it..

[Lucky Phil]

3 hours ago, Weegie said:

It would appear so Phil

I looked on the other head nothing.

Then checked it with a thin piece of bicycle cable and it appears closed but still deeper than I'd like and the cable bottoming is no guarantee that it still isn't a leak path

Any ideas on sealing, you think JB Weld would be sufficient or is a head removal and strip in my future?

John

 

If its not causing an issue then dont worry about it. It's probably an isolated hole. Ducati just used to fill them with Araldite back in the 70's and it lasted for years although there's better stuff around now like JB and Devcon F if you feel the need.

Ciao

[Weegie]

Thanks guys in that case I'll just leave it be

I wonder if anybody else has any other data on pressures. It's not really a biggie now as I know that the pressure is good and I can get back to putting it together rather than tearing it to pieces

Phil and Chuck you both have been a fantastic help and stopped me spending countless fruitless hours doing surgery I didn't need to

Just got to build it back up again, get the front subframe back on then relocate the coils so as I can install a larger cooler (well that's the plan). Still a lot of work but if this lockdown ends the bike might see the light of day before the riding season finishes (and I get too old to ride the damm thing)

John

[MartyNZ]

On 5/3/2020 at 1:55 AM, Weegie said:

...This all started with a HiCam I have and was related to both overheating .... I can't be bothered going into the details about the overheating,

 

19 hours ago, Weegie said:

... relocate the coils so as I can install a larger cooler (well that's the plan)....John

Hi John, I noticed your comments on overheating. I don't want to second guess the expertise on WG, but I hope that you are aware that a common cause of overheating is timing. Retarded ignition, injection, or valve timing cause overheating faster than lean mixture. The engine will run smoothly but sluggishly, and the headers will glow red in short order.

[Weegie]

36 minutes ago, MartyNZ said:

 

Hi John, I noticed your comments on overheating. I don't want to second guess the expertise on WG, but I hope that you are aware that a common cause of overheating is timing. Retarded ignition, injection, or valve timing cause overheating faster than lean mixture. The engine will run smoothly but sluggishly, and the headers will glow red in short order.

Hi Marty

Thanks for the input.

I really know nothing about any of these variables in regard to this engine. It's a stock Daytona RS HiCam engine, running a 16M ECU as those bikes do. Ignition timing is governed by the Phonic Wheel and it's not possible to alter that AFAIK as it installs onto the Jackshaft (or service shaft as Guzzi call it) using dowels. Injection is the same (fixed by the wheel & map) apart from balancing each side, which is easy to do.

Valve timing is whole different ball game and looking at the manual, I struggle to understand what it's trying to tell me. I could probably do it although I'll need to purchase some dial gauges and mag bases. Phil might help guide me, I'd have thought all I would have needed is to determine crank angle using a degree wheel and dial gauges on the cams to see max lift on either inlet or exhaust at the appropriate crank angle for each cylinder, but if that's what the manual is telling me it's bloody long winded.

When it did overheat on me, it certainly didn't seem to lose any pep and was still pulling well on the way back home, after letting the engine cool somewhat.

The plugs looked fine and didn't show any leaness, as for the headers TBH I never looked, besides they are now Ceramic coated. Now Need to think some more about my next course of action now

[Chuck]

You need a degree wheel and a dial indicator. The top sprockets are vernier, and valve timing can be adjusted by them.

[Lucky Phil]

7 minutes ago, Chuck said:

You need a degree wheel and a dial indicator. The top sprockets are vernier, and valve timing can be adjusted by them.

Yes Chuck, it's a nice system on the Daytona engine and makes valve timing easy. I dont think timings Johns issue though. I'm not sure the Australia with the fairings is a great suburban low speed proposition, I think these things need to be a naked to be an all rounder as they naturally run hot. All Guzzi's struggle with overheating at low speeds even the Grisso's. I remember riding my 2 valver home through the suburbs when I thought it was failing a drive shaft uni so I avoided any more than about 40kph and left it in 2nd or third gear for about 3 or 4 klms. It got pretty hot which surprised me at the time.

Ciao   

[Weegie]

Phil

Looking at your build thread it appears, although I'm asking the question really, that what you did is as I stated, and looked at the exhaust valve lift in relation to valve timing, or was it when it came off the cam?

Either way if for example the exhaust cam position is checked relative to the crank, then both inlet and exhaust are fixed for that cylinder. Then move on and do the other side.

I don't think that's beyond me just need to purchase a dial gauge and a clamp or mag base (which won't work on a Aluminuim block but I could build up something to sit close to the cam), which I'll do.

As it's not a huge job to get into the belts and cams, I think I'll just build the engine up and try it again. If after the intended mods it's still overheating then I can strip it off to get to the belts and check the valve timing. If I can relocate the coils it also relieves me of the tedious task of having to take the coils and their mounting bracket on & off. No clue if it's the same as Guzzi's approach but on the Australia it's a Heath Robinson designed PIA.

I already know about the verniers on the cams and I agree it's elegant, but they aren't something to be messed with unless you have the right equipment and more importantly know exactly what you're doing

John

[Lucky Phil]

9 hours ago, Weegie said:

Phil

Looking at your build thread it appears, although I'm asking the question really, that what you did is as I stated, and looked at the exhaust valve lift in relation to valve timing, or was it when it came off the cam?

Either way if for example the exhaust cam position is checked relative to the crank, then both inlet and exhaust are fixed for that cylinder. Then move on and do the other side.

I don't think that's beyond me just need to purchase a dial gauge and a clamp or mag base (which won't work on a Aluminuim block but I could build up something to sit close to the cam), which I'll do.

As it's not a huge job to get into the belts and cams, I think I'll just build the engine up and try it again. If after the intended mods it's still overheating then I can strip it off to get to the belts and check the valve timing. If I can relocate the coils it also relieves me of the tedious task of having to take the coils and their mounting bracket on & off. No clue if it's the same as Guzzi's approach but on the Australia it's a Heath Robinson designed PIA.

I already know about the verniers on the cams and I agree it's elegant, but they aren't something to be messed with unless you have the right equipment and more importantly know exactly what you're doing

John

You remove the rockers John and run the dial indicator off the exhaust lifter. That way you can easily turn the cam with all the belts fitted and tensioned to align it with the crank position and then fit the vernia adjuster. Nice system. You cant adjust the inlet and exhaust timing independently. Unless someone has messed with your timing or its been assembled incorrectly at the factory or the belts have been installed a tooth out it should be fine.

Ciao

 

[Weegie]

11 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

You remove the rockers John and run the dial indicator off the exhaust lifter. That way you can easily turn the cam with all the belts fitted and tensioned to align it with the crank position and then fit the vernia adjuster. Nice system. You cant adjust the inlet and exhaust timing independently. Unless someone has messed with your timing or its been assembled incorrectly at the factory or the belts have been installed a tooth out it should be fine.

Ciao

 

Thanks Phil.

I still wonder what the manual is trying to tell me??

Common sense indicated that would be the way to go and the confirmation is much appreciated

John