Daytona RS (non US & Singapore) Cam Timing & the Manual

[Weegie]

Phil was helping me out and setting me straight with this, but I thought it ought to be brought to the attenion of any of those you unfortunate enough to have one of these engines and needing to check the cam timing because the manual is (how shall I put this) ambiguous

On the cams for the Daytona RS (non US & Singapore)  Page 84

This tells you to go to 69.5 degrees on the exahust After BDC for 1mm of lift

I'm ASSuming "feeler" is dial gauge and "induction" is lift as also added in there just to spice it up some more

Fig 11.51 clearly shows the Degree Wheel at 69.5 degrees After BDC. (just to re-enforce the point)

I just dread to think some poor RS owner out there taking bike to shop (let's say for belts change that ends up a little pear shaped).....................................mechanic gets web manual and religously does it to the book!!

Checking out Page 89 on that page they give me 2 sets of cam timings for the RS version (non US & Singapore) & none for the RS version (US & Singapore). Clearly the Centauro and RS for US & Singapore are the same so the top timing diagram refers to these models & the bottom diagram refers to the RS (non US & Singapore)

Looking at the bottom diagram and text on Page 89

Cam timing

Exhaust Lift (1mm) 63.5 degrees Before BDC

Inlet Closes (1mm) at 69.5 degrees After BDC

So my best guess is To set the Cams

Establish TDC on each of the cylinders

Obtain 63.5 degrees engine rotation on each cylinder Before BDC & check for 1mm of lift on the relevant Exhaust Cam Follower/Pushrod

If anybody else knows different please come and correct my stupidity, I've spent a good bit of time trying to make any sense of the instructions and when I finally did (thanks to Phil) I then find it's wrong

 

[Lucky Phil]

3 hours ago, Weegie said:

Phil was helping me out and setting me straight with this, but I thought it ought to be brought to the attenion of any of those you unfortunate enough to have one of these engines and needing to check the cam timing because the manual is (how shall I put this) ambguous

On the cams for the Daytona RS (non US & Singapore)  Page 84

This tells you to go to 69.5 degrees on the exahust After BDC for 1mm of lift

I'm ASSuming "feeler" is dial gauge and "induction" is lift as also added in there just to spice it up some more

To enforce this Fig 11.51 clearly shows the Degree Wheel at 69.5 degrees After BDC. (just to re-enforce the point)

I just dread to think some poor RS owner out there taking bike to shop (let's say for belts change that ends up a little pear shaped).....................................mechanic gets web manual and religously does it to the book!!

Checking out Page 89 on that page they give me 2 sets of cam timings for the RS version (non US & Singapore) & none for the RS version (US & Singapore). Clearly the Centauro and RS for US & Singapore are the same so the top timing diagram refers to these models & the bottom diagram refers to the RS (non US & Singapore)

Looking at the bottom diagram and text on Page 89

Cam timing

Exhaust Lift (1mm) 63.5 degrees Before BDC

Inlet Closes (1mm) at 69.5 degrees After BDC

So my best guess is To set the Cams

Establish TDC on each of the cylinders

Obtain 63.5 degrees engine rotation on each cylinder Before BDC & check for 1mm of lift on the relevant Exhaust Cam Follower/Pushrod

If anybody else knows different please come and correct my stupidity, I've spent a good bit of time trying to make any sense of the instructions and when I finally did (thanks to Phil) I then find it's wrong

 

Yes John that looks correct for the non US Swiss and Singapore RS. The manual is hopeless and shows wrong images ( turn crank to 49 before BDC and actually shows After BDC) and text mixing up inlet and exhaust.  

 

Ciao

[pete roper]

I had a 'C' kit RS in a while back and had Phil Arnold come up from Tassie to assist with degreeing in the cams as it had never run right. It gave us kittens and while we knew we'd got it timed spot on it still wasn't right.

The owner took it to a bloke whose name I know but can't remember and he pharted about and ended up graphing both camshafts and it turned out that this 'C' kit bike, that had never been apart, had come from the factory with one 'C' kit camshaft and one 'A' kit camshaft! No wonder we couldn't get it to run right!

As Chuck says of bikes of that period the only reason they bothered assembling them at the factory was to make sure you got the right number of parts. No guarantee they'd be the right parts though.........

[Lucky Phil]

2 hours ago, pete roper said:

I had a 'C' kit RS in a while back and had Phil Arnold come up from Tassie to assist with degreeing in the cams as it had never run right. It gave us kittens and while we knew we'd got it timed spot on it still wasn't right.

The owner took it to a bloke whose name I know but can't remember and he pharted about and ended up graphing both camshafts and it turned out that this 'C' kit bike, that had never been apart, had come from the factory with one 'C' kit camshaft and one 'A' kit camshaft! No wonder we couldn't get it to run right!

As Chuck says of bikes of that period the only reason they bothered assembling them at the factory was to make sure you got the right number of parts. No guarantee they'd be the right parts though.........

Yes Pete, Not much different to Ducati at the time.

Ciao

[Weegie]

4 hours ago, pete roper said:

I had a 'C' kit RS in a while back and had Phil Arnold come up from Tassie to assist with degreeing in the cams as it had never run right. It gave us kittens and while we knew we'd got it timed spot on it still wasn't right.

The owner took it to a bloke whose name I know but can't remember and he pharted about and ended up graphing both camshafts and it turned out that this 'C' kit bike, that had never been apart, had come from the factory with one 'C' kit camshaft and one 'A' kit camshaft! No wonder we couldn't get it to run right!

As Chuck says of bikes of that period the only reason they bothered assembling them at the factory was to make sure you got the right number of parts. No guarantee they'd be the right parts though.........

That's just bloody scary Pete, can I ask what were the symptoms it displayed? Specifically wondering about overheating.

Going Off Topic for a minute

I'll start a separate thread later but it turns out that the oil pressure I'd been chasing for a long time mainly posting on WildGoose appears to have been a WildGoose Chase after all. The HiCams run at a lower pressure due to a combination of increased oil feed to the heads and the relief valve passing before it actually cracks at relief pressure.

So I'm putting it back together with an aftermarket Setrab or Mocal (haven't made my mind up yet) cooler to see how I get on, Phil's been great in helping me understand what's going on in these engines

Just checking the cams (when the bloody tools I need arrive) to ensure 2 things

1) That I'm not a tooth out on the belts (I've been into the oil pump and gears to do some odds and ends, then replaced the belts), pretty confident I'm not but better to be sure

2) That the factory assembled it correctly in the first place. If the manual shows a diagram that's clearly wrong showing how to set cam timing then IMHO there's every possibility that it may have been set incorrectly at Mandello.

Can only agree whole heartedly with Chuck

John (AKA Old Jock on WG)

[pete roper]

The pisser is John, that Jude and I were hoping to be over in the British Isles, (Hardly the UK any more!) in September/October and I was hoping to get in touch and spend a couple of days with you and Charlotte with the idea we could skive off and have a bit of a look at this. Sadly Bat Flu has put paid to that for a year at least.

Arse!

[Weegie]

That's a bummer Pete

Don't make yourself a stranger be great to meet up again, how's about next year if God spares us?

Hopefully they'll be 5 Guzzis in the shed, perhaps some of them running

A wee run out weather permitting??

Anyway Charlotte and me would love to see the pair of you again, both Jude and your good self would be more than welcome (beers on me)

John

[pete roper]

DRINK!

[Chuck]

Quote

(beers on me)

Uhh, maybe just buying their airline tickets would be cheaper?

[Weegie]

Checked both cams yesterday, this is for a non US RS, the US RS and Centauro have different cams, see Lucky Phil's build thread page 7.

https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20664-v11-daytona-project/page/7/

Had to do a bit of mental arithmetic and thinking (not my strongest suit). The left side was a breeze but as I just kept the degree wheel zeroed on the LHS TDC, had to turn the crank 270 degrees (clockwise facing the front) direction of engine rotation, then set up the gauge onto the lifter and zero it for the RHS.

After that I turned through 90+(90-63.5)=116.5 degrees to arrive at 63.5 degrees before BDC on the RHS. A lot of degree wheels including this one have their scales laid out as before and after TDC/BDC. So instead of looking for 63.5 after the 90 on the wheel I needed to obtain 26.5 after the 90 as the wheel is numbered from BDC counting towards the 90 degrees

It's hardly rocket science, but it's easy to get confused especially if the scales aren't numbered 0-360, but 0-90 (after TDC), 90-0 (before BDC), 0-90 (after BDC), 90-0 (before TDC) as you rotate the wheel. I turned the nut on the service shaft to rotate the crank and it turns in the opposite direction.

Some notes on my experience doing this.

As long as you have a degree wheel, a mag base and a dial gauge it's not difficult. I used  an adapter to screw the dial gauge into the spark plug hole, alternatively the dial gauge could be used without spark plug adapters if you have extension shafts for the gauge and then set it up on a base above the plug hole, or simply a positve stop tool.

I bought a solid wheel which could also be moved using wing nuts. Like this

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200MM-ADJUSTABLE-3MM-ALUMINIUM-CNC-ENGRAVED-ENGINE-TIMING-DISC/233567512922?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

The thicker wheel makes it a lot easier IMHO, to mount and obtain accurate readings and being able to rotate it really helped without having to mess with the mounting nut. I don't like undoing the mounting nut or bending the pointer as I can never get it accurate. I drilled the center of the wheel out to 16mm to mount onto the crank.

When the belts are tensioned and the valves are being operated, the engine gets pretty hard to turn against the springs. It's a lot easier if the rockers are removed first so as you don't have to turn against the springs, besides you need to remove the rockers to check the cam follower lift. It also negates the danger of the piston flying up under valve spring pressure and whacking the positive stop if you're using that method to find TDC

I found using the dial gauge easier than using a positive stop, but either way is fine. Using the gauge find TDC, then rotate the engine clockwise and anticlockwise 3mm either way and check the readings. When rotating anticlockwise go past the 3mm then bring the crank back to 3mm clockwise. That equated to 20 degrees crank rotation in each direction, when I did it the figures were spot on. If not TDC needs to be adjusted on the wheel. Lots of videos on YouTube showing how to do this.

If you use a positive stop then you just bring the piston up GENTLY until it contacts the stop in either direction then do the arithmetic to find TDC again YouTube has lots of videos

After that the base is set so the dial gauge reads the cam follower. Set the engine at TDC LHS and zero the gauge on the LHS exhaust follower. Rotate the engine to 63.5 before BDC then check the dial gauge to ascertain the lift. I did this with the verniers (gears) in place, as I didn't want to mess with them unless I really had to. As both were spot on I didn't need to.

To check the other side I then just did the arithmetic I've already mentioned and rotated the crank to 270 degrees, zeroed the dial gauge on the RHS lifter then rotated a further 116.5 degrees and checked.

I'm no mechanic but you really don't need to be, just go slow and think about each step.