HiCam Oil Pressure, Gross Stupidity and why you should always listen to Chuck

[Twin AH]

Good morning gentlemen.

Have been reading this as well as other threads on the conversions recommended for the engine in my /98 Centauro.

Was hoping someone may have documented all the bits and pieces required to do the job correctly as I wouldn't want to get in there only to find out a minor part is required and may be tricky to locate or get shipped in this day and age.

Using Joes steel gear sets/pump..... new belts....any other nuts/bolts lockers ect?

Is it prudent to change out the spring to one from a Griso?     Part# for any and all extras would be much appreciated.

Thx in advance                   Ciao

[Weegie]

Hi @Twin AH

I've got some pictures of the teardown  and install of the Caruso gear and pump change. At some point I've been hoping to a do a "how to" if that's what you're referring to, but it hasn't happened yet.

I don't know of a single document or place where all the mods are listed and it all depends on how far you want to go. I'm sure Lucky Phil will chime in and he's the real expert.

As far as the Griso spring change out, I'm the only person to have done it as far as I'm aware and the bike hasn't even been out on a shakedown run, although the results are encouraging. The problem as far as I can see is the original spring is too soft and so starts to lift early. The Griso spring is much more positive helping the valve to seat and only lifting at it's setpoint. Once the engine is up to temp the valve will be shut (but probably still leak a little it's a rotten design), The OEM spring will probably still float and rob the engine of oil flow. I haven't done extensive testing with either but a few have reported that running oil pressure can be lower than I'd personally be comfortable with.

Have you read through Lucky Phil's Hi Cam build? That's a great place to start.

https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20664-v11-daytona-project

Part number for the Griso spring is 94321077

All I've really done of significance is the Caruso pump & gear mod, the Griso spring and installed a different oil cooler as I didn't like the OEM setup, due to the 4 banjo fittings which I reckon will introduce a signifcant pressure drop across the cooler.

However with the exception of the Caruso gears and pump, I can't recommend them any of them yet as the bike hasn't been out on a proper run to asses them

[Lucky Phil]

9 hours ago, Twin AH said:

Good morning gentlemen.

Have been reading this as well as other threads on the conversions recommended for the engine in my /98 Centauro.

Was hoping someone may have documented all the bits and pieces required to do the job correctly as I wouldn't want to get in there only to find out a minor part is required and may be tricky to locate or get shipped in this day and age.

Using Joes steel gear sets/pump..... new belts....any other nuts/bolts lockers ect?

Is it prudent to change out the spring to one from a Griso?     Part# for any and all extras would be much appreciated.

Thx in advance                   Ciao

Loctite 242 Nutlock

Metal front engine cover gasket 12001200M

front cover crank seal 90402840

Cam flange ( later style with oil relief slots or older style without which you can easily modify) 01054000

A tool like this

ciao

 

 

[Twin AH]

Thx Phil.

You are the man.

 

Regards.

[Weegie]

On 9/27/2020 at 12:14 AM, Lucky Phil said:

My Daytona engine with the std spring makes 58-60 psi hot max and around 32 psi hot on 15W-40 oil. Both ends are adequate, the top end max could be better but its not going to be an issue. To get the top end better I have a choice, either a heavier oil or the John ratified Griso spring. For the moment its the heavier 10W-60 oil but further down the track when its convenient I may just update to the Griso spring and lighter weight oil.

Ciao         

     

I did mean to comment on this Phil, as I'm seriously considering both

The Griso spring will help to hold the pressure as the bike comes up to temperature and eliminate some (but not all) leakage. However when the engine's hot, 80C+ oil temp the max I obtained at 4k RPM was 75psi. The relief is closed at running temperature and only oil weight will have any effect on pressure. 75psi is sufficient and I'd be more than happy enough with that (and continue to run my 15/50) IF the engine temperature stabilizes at 80C.

A shakedown run will be the only way I can establish the true hot oil temperature and Winter is knocking at the door here.

It appears that after around 3k the pressure maxes out and increasing revs to 4k did nothing to increase the pressure. I can't say for sure that it doesn't rise at revs above 4k but from the data I've gathered so far it certainly looks like it's peaked by 3k RPM.

John

[Lucky Phil]

9 hours ago, Weegie said:

I did mean to comment on this Phil, as I'm seriously considering both

The Griso spring will help to hold the pressure as the bike comes up to temperature and eliminate some (but not all) leakage. However when the engine's hot, 80C+ oil temp the max I obtained at 4k RPM was 75psi. The relief is closed at running temperature and only oil weight will have any effect on pressure. 75psi is sufficient and I'd be more than happy enough with that (and continue to run my 15/50) IF the engine temperature stabilizes at 80C.

A shakedown run will be the only way I can establish the true hot oil temperature and Winter is knocking at the door here.

It appears that after around 3k the pressure maxes out and increasing revs to 4k did nothing to increase the pressure. I can't say for sure that it doesn't rise at revs above 4k but from the data I've gathered so far it certainly looks like it's peaked by 3k RPM.

John

In your climate John your running oil temp even ( not traffic) in summer will probably only be around 100C maximum, probably a fair bit lower. As you can see from the graph below with regards to the change of viscosity from 80 to 100 deg C its very small. It's not a straight viscosity reduction but an exponential change so the difference between 80 and 100 isn't great.

The issue you have though isn't going to be at the top end as you wont be needing max oil pressure when the oil temp is up around or over the 100 deg C point, that will be when you're in traffic and even if you did the pressure at 100C will probably now be around the 65 psi mark which is still plenty. Your concern is at the bottom end with the oil light coming on, or has been. Presently you have 32 psi idle pressure at 80 deg C and you wont have the LOP light issue any more even at 120 deg oil temp. From the graph you can get a reasonable idea. I'd estimate the top end at 120 deg C will reduce to around 55 psi and the idle will be around 15-20 psi. plenty in both cases. 

Of course this doesnt take into account engine clearance changes with temp so it will still be interesting to see what the actual figures are.

Ciao      

 

[Weegie]

Thanks Phil

Here was me labouring under the misapprehension that the temperature viscosity relationship was linear, which it clearly is not

From that graph it appears that after 70C and certainly after 80, a temperature approaching normal running condition, that the viscosity changes are pretty much negligable

Very interesting

[Weegie]

Well bet you were all thinking this was dead and gone.

So after removing my OEM V/V with Griso spring to try to lower the presssure a little I then couldn't get the valve to seal well  again.

I purchased an HMB valve and tried that but although I did get static tests that looked great whenever I put it in the engine I just never got the pressure I was expecting. The only explanation I can think of for differences I experienced between static and engine testing, is that oil pressure in the bike is constantly fluctuating probably at quite a high frequency so the valve is constantly chattering and you can't replicate in a static test.

Anyway I took the PRV out of the 1100 Sport which is identical apart from the spring and used it with the Griso spring in. Static tests with the 3mm spacer showed the valve lifting at 120psi, a tad too high for my liking so I removed the spacer and got the v/v lifitng at 85psi.

Put that in the HiCam engine and did a crank run, 68psi.................Hmmm

Today I ran the engine, cold oil idle was around 80 psi and when the oil got hot 60-80 C the valve seemed to be controlling at 68psi.

Before I had 83psi setpoint and the valve controlled throughout the range, but I think because now with the lower setting of 68psi, what's happening is the valve lifts earlier and the system pressure vs the PRV lift pressure is a larger delta. So when the oil is cold the valve gets choked and system pressure rises above the valve setpoint.

I'd ideally liked to have the lift pressure to be  a bit higher but learning from my previous experience I'll leave it at 68psi and call it "job done"

Even at this lower pressure setting it's night and day over the standard spring with its 55psi cold idle and lower operating pressure throughout the range.

Finally it looks like I've arrived at, if not the ideal solution, pressures that seem reasonable.

The next question is how will this affect cooling? I'm hoping the higher system pressure will lead to the engine possibly ruunning a bit cooler, but that's for the summer and a good run out.................and that's a bit away yet

[Weegie]

So couple of data points first a long boring video showing the results. Pressure is still a little low but I wonder if the pressure at the gauge is the same as what's at the crank, possibly a little higher at the crank. As the 2 valves run at this sort of pressure too I suppose it's nothing too much to worry about. Certainly better than in the 40s which I reckon the OEM will give you.

Oh that Staining/drips on the tiles is some small leaks where the cans mate to the pipes, and the drips are water. There was another small oil leak from a rocker I reckon now fixed

 

I'm just adding all this stuff as data points for others to let people see what the results I'm getting.

Tomorrow I'll try to post a comparison of the different tests just for some more info to tie it together a little more

[Lucky Phil]

Good info John, but one important data point missing. Oil viscosity and type? Full synthetic or semi synth? Grade?

BTW I'd leave the belly pan off myself. Looks good and will cool better.

Confirm this is with the 1100 Sport PRV without the spacer?

Ciao

[Weegie]

Apologies Phil

It's running Motul 300V 15/50 full synth. All tests have been conducted on that oil, so differing results have nothing to do with changes to the lubricant.

Yes at the moment it's running the 1100 Sport PRV no spacer, Griso spring. The 1100 sport valve is the same part as the OEM HiCam engine's valve, the only difference is the spring, which of course is changed out for the Griso.

I have another valve from TLM and awaiting a Griso spring for it. When that arrives I plan to douse the valve in oil and change to the Griso spring adding a 3mm, or 3mm with a 1mm spacer on top (effectively giving a 2mm spacer) onto the spring to preload it. The idea being it ups the setpoint and the extra preload on the spring might help drive the piston in the valve shut at higher oil temps (lower viscosity), in my case that would be normal running temperature of 80C and above where I think the valve will be completely closed.

I could be wrong but I believe these valves are quite sensitive and should be liberally oiled when tested. If not the piston faces could get scratched and results in the valve passing even more than it does when it's new.

If none of that improves anything I can see a move to 60 grade oil in my stars. I think Paul Daytona and one or two others already run the 60 grade. Differences will probably be ngligable, but as my engine runs hot, I think it's a reasonable move, if I still want to increase the pressure a little.

One thing at a time though and change out the valve first. At the moment though I'm pretty happy thanks to all the help I've upped the pressure at least 10psi and probably a good deal more.

So thank you to everybody for the assistance and it's nice to see some light at the end of very long tunnel

[Weegie]

I hear you Phil on the fairing, problem is that the Belly Pan helps to provide rigidity to the fairing.

Might be an idea though to run some comparison tests with and without to see if there is any difference

[gstallons]

It does sound good !

[Lucky Phil]

21 hours ago, Weegie said:

I hear you Phil on the fairing, problem is that the Belly Pan helps to provide rigidity to the fairing.

Might be an idea though to run some comparison tests with and without to see if there is any difference

If it were mine John I'd make a mould of the upper fairing and then abbreviate and style it to blend in to expose the engine  then make a new version. You might need to fabricate some additional brackets. I'd then store the original fairing. 

Ciao

[nobleswood]

Good to see you getting closer to where you want the specs to be 

The exhaust note as you bring up the revs is intoxicating