Sudden oil leak

[po18guy]

Is the physical size of the Purolator an issue, or is it OK?

[Lucky Phil]

44 minutes ago, po18guy said:

Is the physical size of the Purolator an issue, or is it OK?

Dont know i'd need to measure both to be 100% sure. I'd be happy to buy one and physically compare if I could go to the local auto shop or buy off Amazon as a US local. I just thought after years of oil filter debates someone in the states that can get the best filter available ( most likely) for an outlay of 10-15 bucks might like to check one out and confirm the fit and function and then we could all know for sure if arguably the best filter on the market worked for the Guzzi V11. It's a modest cost outlay for American compared to us over here.

Ciao

[Chuck]

Guzzi delivered Norges with the Bosch 3330 for a while. These supposedly cross reference. I always use the 3330. It's an ok if not spectacular filter..

Purolator PL14476 / PL14477
Mobil1 M1-102
Mobil1 M1MC-131
Mobil1 M1MC-132 (CHrome)
Bosch 3330
Walmart Supertech ST4967 / 4386
AMSOil SMF 133/134/135
Baldwin B33 / B37
Fram PH4967
Hastings Lh410 / LF 413
HiFlo HF199
K&N KN-170
NAPA 1394
Purolator ML16822
WIX 51394 / 51396

[po18guy]

Got tired of being landlocked, so I found a not-rainy day and pulled the left valve cover. Hmmmm.  Problem obvious, but what was the cause? Ya' know, you'd think that a well-paid professional mechanic would take some pride in his work.  Of the top four bolts, one had a washer that was clearly from some other source, being twice as thick. One other had two washers. Now as to the bolts holding the head guard, two had washers beneath and two did not. How do you suppose that affected the clamping force? And these are the thicker (#6139 0.8mm) gaskets. 

Went immediately to the surface plate. The guard is flat. Good. After using my favorite beverage (Methylene Chloride) to soften and remove what was left of the old gasket on the cover, I flattened it with a few strokes atop 320 wet or dry on the surface plate. It wasn't bad but a little freshening could not hurt in the flatness arena. A little 3M 8008 gasket maker on the cover, and a sparing amount of Mobil1 synthetic grease on the head side and back together we went. 10 N-m and all was good. Went for a 30 mile/45Km thrash on the freeway/Interstate/Autobahn/Auto Strada and all remained nice and dry. 

Today, I re-torqued the cover bolts and noted that they would move at 7-8 N-m, so the sandwich I made of them had compressed a bit. Looked at the right side and 3 out of 4 bolts had washers beneath the head guard. Ugh. Since the right side is not leaking, I will let sleeping dogs lie and catch that one at next service. Sure glad I didn't pay for that "maintenance." 

 

 

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, po18guy said:

Got tired of being landlocked, so I found a not-rainy day and pulled the left valve cover. Hmmmm.  Problem obvious, but what was the cause? Ya' know, you'd think that a well-paid professional mechanic would take some pride in his work.  Of the top four bolts, one had a washer that was clearly from some other source, being twice as thick. One other had two washers. Now as to the bolts holding the head guard, two had washers beneath and two did not. How do you suppose that affected the clamping force? And these are the thicker (#6139 0.8mm) gaskets. 

Went immediately to the surface plate. The guard is flat. Good. After using my favorite beverage (Methylene Chloride) to soften and remove what was left of the old gasket on the cover, I flattened it with a few strokes atop 320 wet or dry on the surface plate. It wasn't bad but a little freshening could not hurt in the flatness arena. A little 3M 8008 gasket maker on the cover, and a sparing amount of Mobil1 synthetic grease on the head side and back together we went. 10 N-m and all was good. Went for a 30 mile/45Km thrash on the freeway/Interstate/Autobahn/Auto Strada and all remained nice and dry. 

Today, I re-torqued the cover bolts and noted that they would move at 7-8 N-m, so the sandwich I made of them had compressed a bit. Looked at the right side and 3 out of 4 bolts had washers beneath the head guard. Ugh. Since the right side is not leaking, I will let sleeping dogs lie and catch that one at next service. Sure glad I didn't pay for that "maintenance." 

 

 

Over torquing and old obsolete technology is the issue.

Ciao

[gstallons]

You know the other side is screwed up too . Take it apart and do it right . You don't want to ride 45 miles and ruin a new riding boot on this account .

[Chuck]

That is a common problem with the big blocks. Your differing amount of washers doesn't mean squat. It happened to The Kid the first time he rode his Spot in anger in the Appalachians. You'll notice the gasket gets sucked inward. His was sucked inward in the same place. Use the gaskets with metal core.

He's the best mechanic I know, and he knows how to properly install a gasket. We did a field repair with gasket goo that got us through the trip, then he installed the "good" gaskets.

2017-06-04_01-31-41 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr

[Nihontochicken]

18 hours ago, po18guy said:

Of the top four bolts, one had a washer that was clearly from some other source, being twice as thick. One other had two washers. Now as to the bolts holding the head guard, two had washers beneath and two did not.

Looks familiar!  Here's the link to my leak thread.

https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/21629-my-first-oil-leak/

Snippet: "Also, I noticed all the hold down bolts were the same size except the top rear bolt, which is markedly shorter.  Is this correct, or a Bubba mistake?  Also one and only one steel washer dropped free from one of the bolt seats.  Should all, some or none of these Allen head hold down bolts use washers?"

Looks like Bubba really gets around!   

[po18guy]

48 minutes ago, Nihontochicken said:

Looks familiar!  Here's the link to my leak thread.

https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/21629-my-first-oil-leak/

Snippet: "Also, I noticed all the hold down bolts were the same size except the top rear bolt, which is markedly shorter.  Is this correct, or a Bubba mistake?  Also one and only one steel washer dropped free from one of the bolt seats.  Should all, some or none of these Allen head hold down bolts use washers?"

Looks like Bubba really gets around!   

You have me thinking. DW thanks you for that! Anyway, all of the diagrams I have seen and owner input here suggest that the top four screws have washers while the guard screws have none, either above or below. The top screws are all one length and the guard screws all of the same longer length. Will try to remember to measure them. That is how I am reassembling it and that makes sense.

7 hours ago, Chuck said:

That is a common problem with the big blocks. Your differing amount of washers doesn't mean squat. It happened to The Kid the first time he rode his Spot in anger in the Appalachians. You'll notice the gasket gets sucked inward. His was sucked inward in the same place. Use the gaskets with metal core.

He's the best mechanic I know, and he knows how to properly install a gasket. We did a field repair with gasket goo that got us through the trip, then he installed the "good" gaskets.

2017-06-04_01-31-41 by Charles Stottlemyer, on Flickr

True enough, but how is this situation helped by placing washers under the head guard at its ends and omitting them in the middle at the leak point? Before I pulled her down, I re-torqued the cap screws. The screw at the rear end of the leak point tightened ever so slowly, with that "it's about to strip" feeling. Now I know why: It was essentially trying to pull the guard down into contact with the valve cover. That is simple mechanic's negligence.  I miked the height of the bosses on the valve cover and all were nominally the same - thus, no washers needed. What was the fellow thinking - or not thinking?  As well, gasket compression is another issue and re-torquing may be old school, but it can never hurt.

To assuage any impinged upon nerves, I received the metal core gaskets from MG today. A clear improvement and dirt cheap for a European bike with such idiosyncratic construction.  Short of a Japanese style gasket with flanges to keep it in place, they are the clear solution. I recall here that the Japanese entered the industrial age by copying known designs and since their unchanging and inscrutable cultural traditions did not extend to the arena of industrial manufacture, they quickly analyzed and solved problems such as leaking gaskets. I have a 1987 Kawi EX500/GPz500S. Has the original cam cover gasket and it shows no sign of needing replacement. Neither does it leak. However, the Japanese tend toward the rational rather than the passionate. 

[Lucky Phil]

I dont thinks it's just happenstance that the section that always fails is also the section with the closest pitched retaining bolts and is on the low side. A combination of more local clamping force and the natural subconscious "this is the place where it's most likely to leak" results in overtorque. Once the gasket deforms around the bolt hole the bolt threads then grab on the gasket and distort or tear it from the bolt hole and then the cyclic expansion and contraction due to heat and crankcase pressure continue the process.

Looking at the larger image of the green gasket you can plainly see the distortion of the gasket hole. Even if you reposition the gasket break the hole will still be distorted because as the bolts been torqued its grabbed the inside of the gasket in the mount hole and started the tearing process. If you positioned the gasket on the head or cover with some Hylomar to hold the gaskets mount holes in the correct position during the fitment process it would also go a way to preventing the occurrence. Or you can just move into the 21st Century and use a metal based gasket which is a lot more robust all around and can tolerate any mount hole misalignment stresses during fitment.

Ciao    

[po18guy]

Got metal gaskets from MG. Two things: 1) The "mechanic" who last touched it used zero washers here, one there, two there. Sloppy work. The guard is apparently not supposed to have any washers under it (between it and the valve cover).  This one had washers underneath the guard at both end screws and and none beneath the center screws. Thus the ends bolts were doing their job whilst the center bolts were attempting to pull the guard down into contact with the valve cover. Epic fail. 2) All such gasket failures I have seen show the failed gasket being sucked inward rather than blown outward. This is curious. Negative crankcase pressure? 

It is assembled correctly now and torqued properly using a CDI ex-aerospace dial torque wrench. I have two changes of metal gaskets should this or the other side fail. I suspect the right side is next, as the same shoddy workmanship is evidenced there, with washers being peppered about.  

 

[Chuck]

Quote

Negative crankcase pressure? 

That's my guess.

[al_roethlisberger]

All very interesting... and funny how just a few "little things" can often make such a big difference.

[docc]

17 hours ago, po18guy said:

Got metal gaskets from MG. Two things: 1) The "mechanic" who last touched it used zero washers here, one there, two there. Sloppy work. The guard is apparently not supposed to have any washers under it (between it and the valve cover).  This one had washers underneath the guard at both end screws and and none beneath the center screws. Thus the ends bolts were doing their job whilst the center bolts were attempting to pull the guard down into contact with the valve cover. Epic fail. 2) All such gasket failures I have seen show the failed gasket being sucked inward rather than blown outward. This is curious. Negative crankcase pressure? 

It is assembled correctly now and torqued properly using a CDI ex-aerospace dial torque wrench. I have two changes of metal gaskets should this or the other side fail. I suspect the right side is next, as the same shoddy workmanship is evidenced there, with washers being peppered about.  

 

Pretty sure this cool thing belongs in "Show Us Your Tools!"