TLM Guzzi

[knumbnutz]

Looks like this is Teo Lamers bike or at least he has something to do with it.

Earlier engine pics - 

With Teo

Next Generation head

The Bike

The Gearbox.  Now this is something I have often thought of and couldnt understand why someone hasnt done it earlier. Running the sprocket at the pivot stops the chain from changing tension through the arc of travel. Reduces stretching and effects on suspension. It also allows for a longer swingarm which helps with suspension.

The finished product

 

[gstallons]

The paint job is a bit much

[Lucky Phil]

8 hours ago, LowRyter said:

Phil, as a Corvette owner with an LS-3 engine, I have to say it's one of the great ones.  In fact, on just about every high end hot rod build TV show, the "go to" engine is the LS-3.  Chevy has updated to the LT series engine with the same basic design but with direct fuel injection.  The older engine is still most popular with hot rod builders in Chevy's catalog.

For sure, based on power to engine displacement the push rod engine losses out to DOHC.  But wait, there's more ways to look at this.  Compare the 6.2 liter Chevy to the 5.0 DOHC Mustang GT and both of them make close to the same power but the Chevy engine is physically smaller, carries weight lower in the car, weighs less (all aluminum), has more torque, gets similar power, better gas mileage, easier to maintain, cheaper to build and much simpler design.   It also hauls ass like an American V8.  But "only" revs to about 6500.  Head to head, the Chevy wins most of the performance contests.  Certainly Ford builds some higher performance versions that are faster like the Shelby version but Chevy has a supercharged version too.  

I'll say in the real world that 435 HP is adequate with a 6 speed manual.  If I turn off all the traction nannies it's real handful and I've nearly binned at time or two.  OTOH, I rode shotgun on 600+ HP supercharged 'vette on a road course  and with launch control, the 80 year old driver had me screaming like a baby.

Being a Chevy guy, my youngest son had to get a Focus ST.  That kid can break a rock, so lots of the Ford ticky tac is breaking.  It has some strange repair stuff like axle bearings and the like.   It eats tires, shakes unexpectedly and has the most non intuitive ergos of anything I've ever driven- even to the point of adjusting the seats, plus annoying chimes and sounds.  But it's a total hoot to drive.  And zooming through traffic, it's size and agility make it a fast ride that I'd have hard time matching with my Corvette.  I've always liked hot hatches and nearly bought one before I found a low mileage 'vette.  There are plenty of pampered used ones at bargain prices.

Yep agree with all of that, the last car I owned for 12 years before the RS was a 5.6L 6 speed Monaro ( Pontiac GTO) to you guys and I am a big fan of the Chevs. My dream is to build a Cobra replica or GT40 replica (RSR) and for that the sensible and easy choice would be a Chev crate engine but I think I'd end up using a Ford twin cam of one version or another.

If you think the ST a hoot to drive the RS is in another league. AWD and 375HP with a simple hand held tune in it and old school "bugger the ride quality we're here to go around corners suspension. I need to watch myself after scaring some other motorists at roundabouts in attack mode.The wife loves the fast corners which is a bonus as well.

Ciao

  

[Lucky Phil]

3 hours ago, po18guy said:

Technology is a marvelous thing. When certain southern Europeans - those known much more for passion than precision try it, well, not so much. Guzzi is perpetually cash-strapped. A simple revised head on the existing block and cylinders might well have been a go. But look at the high cam debacle. Certainly there are many that run well. The rest, we hear about here and elsewhere.

In motorbikes, the 1983-1985 Honda CB650SC was about perfect. Air-cooled 4 in-line, DOHC/24 valves, but with hydraulic lash adjustment. Shaft drive. Maintenance was basically filters and oil. Occasional plugs. Could Piaggio/Guzzi do that? "Technically", yes. The very thought however is somewhat troubling.  

Technology is a two-edged sword. We bought a 2001 Lexus IS300 (Toyota Altezza) with the intention of driving it into the ground over the decades. We have in fact nearly done that. Nice straight six, DOHC, VVT all of the swag. But cam belts are a $1,000 proposition when on special! Engineering, at some point, becomes only a motivator to purchase the next generation of product, as the last gen is bankrupting one.

Yep, your paying Lexus freight there, like Ducati owner have been paying Ducati "freight" for years. Belts are Passe now chains are back. Hopefully gears are next:)

Ciao 

[Paradiso]

The CCM GP450 has the front sprocket at the pivot as you mention.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

[knumbnutz]

Hence the reason I started this. The "No Words" parts....

Copy n paste

8 minutes ago, docc said:

Interesting. I wish we could move all that discussion to this thread from "Post a Picture of Your V11 - No words" . . .

 

[knumbnutz]

12 minutes ago, Paradiso said:

The CCM GP450 has the front sprocket at the pivot as you mention.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
 

and it makes better sense on a dirt bike because of the extra travel but I thought it would have been commonplace. 

 

[footgoose]

God what a load of work! the bike, not the merge

[docc]

14 minutes ago, knumbnutz said:

Hence the reason I started this. The "No Words" parts....

Copy n paste

 

Thanks for putting the new thread up, knumbnutz.  This has been too valuable a discussion to lose.

[Lucky Phil]

Thats an impressive piece of individual engineering if thats what it is. As I mentioned previously though it's totally unworkable as any sort of serious motorcycle from a dynamic point of view. Pitty if thats what the aim was but I doubt it is. The frame is a case in point nicely done of course but I cant imagine any considerations with regard to the important controlled flex has been a consideration which is important for track handling. I'm always torn with these things. The creative engineer in me loves it but the pragmatic side always requires me to rationalise it. Guess thats why I'm not a "creative" or artist.

The Britten was the same, loved the bike and the man behind it but it was a pig of a race bike and anyone that's been involved in racing can see that. Horribly high C of G  which made it a truck in the tight stuff unstable in the fast corners, rear off the ground on the brakes and wheelie everywhere out of the corners. 

I always come away with more respect for the professional designers and engineers when I see these individual constructors and am amazed by the talent and creative flair of the individual builders. Happy all around I guess. 

Ciao 

[knumbnutz]

Here is a PDF of a magazine article which shows the designers original BOTT bike - Pier Paolo Gattuso

 

http://www.fastguzzi.nl/files/g&g.pdf

The website has some unique Guzzis too

http://www.fastguzzi.nl/

[knumbnutz]

Built by the technician Gattuso , with the collaboration of the brothers Gennari, of Verolanuova BS. On the valve cover there is a G with the tail. The meaning of this "logo" stands for G squared, or the two Gennari brothers, and the G's tail, to remember Gattuso's little dog.

[

[knumbnutz]

1 hour ago, Lucky Phil said:

Thats an impressive piece of individual engineering if thats what it is. As I mentioned previously though it's totally unworkable as any sort of serious motorcycle from a dynamic point of view. Pitty if thats what the aim was but I doubt it is. The frame is a case in point nicely done of course but I cant imagine any considerations with regard to the important controlled flex has been a consideration which is important for track handling. I'm always torn with these things. The creative engineer in me loves it but the pragmatic side always requires me to rationalise it. Guess thats why I'm not a "creative" or artist.

The Britten was the same, loved the bike and the man behind it but it was a pig of a race bike and anyone that's been involved in racing can see that. Horribly high C of G  which made it a truck in the tight stuff unstable in the fast corners, rear off the ground on the brakes and wheelie everywhere out of the corners. 

I always come away with more respect for the professional designers and engineers when I see these individual constructors and am amazed by the talent and creative flair of the individual builders. Happy all around I guess. 

Ciao 

Funny you should say that about the britten as I havent heard it before but, when I watch it go around I have always thought that it didnt look right, like they werent really trying to either protect the bike or they couldnt right it hard through the corners. It never seemed to want to lean. Of course I havent ridden it but I have seen plenty of footage and seen it live on the track.

I am not completely convinced it its unworkable and sit on the fence, since I havent seen it run on a track. My knees are far wider than the heads and as seen in one of the pics with a full fairing, the heads don't poke out too much. Now I not saying its a V4 panigale beater either. It would just be nice to see it running around a track and how it performs against a MGS01 for example, if its faster than that, then i would call it successful.

I am searching for specs too. 

At the end, the biggest shame is that Guzzi don't make something that is more modern. 

 

[Lucky Phil]

51 minutes ago, knumbnutz said:

Funny you should say that about the britten as I havent heard it before but, when I watch it go around I have always thought that it didnt look right, like they werent really trying to either protect the bike or they couldnt right it hard through the corners. It never seemed to want to lean. Of course I havent ridden it but I have seen plenty of footage and seen it live on the track.

I am not completely convinced it its unworkable and sit on the fence, since I havent seen it run on a track. My knees are far wider than the heads and as seen in one of the pics with a full fairing, the heads don't poke out too much. Now I not saying its a V4 panigale beater either. It would just be nice to see it running around a track and how it performs against a MGS01 for example, if its faster than that, then i would call it successful.

I am searching for specs too. 

At the end, the biggest shame is that Guzzi don't make something that is more modern. 

 

Years later guys that rode it are a little more forthcoming about it's handling. I remember seeing it at PI years ago and looked at its lap times and recall it was about as fast around there as a good 600 Supersport bike at the time. A mate of mine worked as a race mechanic for one of the factory ASBK teams back in the Britten days and raced his own bikes as well. At Bathurst one year the Britten came over and all he could say was the whole Kiwi operation that weekend was a shambles. It never ran right and they didn't even have enough tools to work on it. I recall him saying a Ducati 900ss passed it on the straight, albeit it was running poorly. JB was a brilliant engineer but I think it's fair to say the hard tedious slog of refinement and development wasn't his forte. 

The main reason the Raceco Guzzi could give it some competition in the BOTT from time to time was Paul Lewis was jockey sized gun rider and much under rated and the Guzzi was far more manageable in the handling department. 

The heads on the latest iteration with the red cam covers look a lot wider than the earlier black heads.  

Ciao

[po18guy]

2 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

Yep, your paying Lexus freight there, like Ducati owner have been paying Ducati "freight" for years. Belts are Passe now chains are back. Hopefully gears are next:)

Ciao 

i.e. Lexus, it is almost cheaper to buy a low-mile engine/trans from a wreck and swap the entire mess over. Might just run it until it goes "bang!" then part it out to the zit-faced racers. A battery for our 2016 300 goes for $700 retail. No thank you! Can get a better than OEM US-made AGM batt for 1/3 of that, as the battery maker has no network of fancy showrooms with loaner cars, free snacks and bottled water. 

As to the Testa Rossa Guzzi, I'll bet there's ample room to place a couple of Japanese 500cc water pumps and a curved rad in there, driven by two of those sprockets. Then, compression could go even higher and torque alongside, for not a whole lot of weight. All air cooling concessions could be excised, gaining a bit back.

As to frame stiffness, the swingarm and technically the forks/front wheel could be flexed up a bit.  Or the frame could be rendered in carbon. Look, we are fantasizing here, so the sky's the limit.

I would still be delighted with 4V pushrod heads.