ECU limited by stock O2

[ScuRoo]

A number of months ago I translated an Italian AG forum posted in 2006. For O2 equipped V11 owners I share what started as some interesting research and culminating in implementation which I’ll come to later...
Let’s get into it! 👍😎

Google translated:

motoube wrote: I'll tell you what I know and why in my opinion the probe used on the Guzzi can be thrown into the rock and replaced with a more modern one. the lambda probe, which some call the O2 sensor or lambda probe, is placed in the exhaust line. we are interested in the one positioned upstream of the catalyst. this probe generates an electrical signal (in our case between 0 and 1 volt nominal) whose value is related to the oxygen content in the exhaust gas this content varies with the variation of the more or less fat carburation. the control unit reads this signal and, taking into account many other factors (TPS position, air temperature, engine temperature ...) makes corrections using the maps it has loaded inside. it will increase injection times for fat and shorten for lean. in general, above a certain speed, the probe signal is ignored. the probe used by Guzzi corresponds to a BOSH probe which has certain characteristics corresponding to the BOSH specification "LSH15", in jargon called the LSh15 calibration curve this probe was used on cars starting from 1992/93, it was immediately seen that its sensitivity and response speed were INADEQUATE TO THE REAL CONDITIONS OF USE OF THE VEHICLE. BOSCH ran for cover and created the probe with the LSH24 calibration curve. much much faster and much much more sensitive. realize that the LSH15 probe has such a slow response time to the variation of the exhaust gases that the control unit takes a thousand or more readings of the lambda value .... the LSH24 instead has a very good sensitivity and a response time equivalent to the reading interval of the ECU. on the cars the lsh15 was replaced starting from 94 with the lsh24, ALSO ON THE CIRCULATING WHEEL, for example FIAT ordered the assistance network to replace the "office" probe on all the cars that for any reason showed up in the workshop but they did not make a nominal recall of the call. in this way, 95% of the current assets will be remedied within two years. it is for this reason that I recommend (and do) to replace the probe originally equipped with the most updated version. it costs something, but the bike is better, the catalyst benefits from it, consumes less, the bike is more fun, etc. among all the probes available on the market, I have indicated to you to ask the spare parts dealer for the PUNTO 55/60/75 probe from 98 with a single 4-wire connector. because'? because it has the same connector that we have, because it has the longest cable but it doesn't create problems because it is the version with the right calibration because that pointed model is the most widespread car of that period and therefore it is the car model for which the greatest number of spare parts are sold, which increases their availability and decreases their price. the same probe is in the universal version, without connector, it costs about 65 euros, you have to cut the wiring of your probe and weld the wires and seal wire by wire with heat shrink, you have to respect the correct wiring (ground, signal, two heater wires) , sometimes the color of the threads does not match. do what you like and let the guzzi do what she wants. I'm replacing the probe. Uberto
 

End translation.

It certainly pricked my interest so I went searching here @ V11lemans for more information - & found one lonesome piece of advice by SimoneV11 but it appears it may have been overlooked as no further discussion referenced it.

Another excellent article source was found giving more helpful depth into what’s exactly required of  the role O2 sensors play.

If this interests you please take the time to read.

http://www.autodiagnosticsandpublishing.com/feature/o2-sensor-testing.html

So I’ll just add one more link for now about the O2 sensor upgrade (about 2/3’s down page). Ignore the heading ‘Breva’ as it pertains to our V11’s.

http://www.guzzifan.com/moto-guzzi-tuning-codes-infos-tips/

Have to leave this for now but will get back with further report. 💤 

 

[4corsa]

Very interesting - thanks for sharing.  I was all ready to purchase one for my recently acquired '03 LeMans, and went out to the garage to measure the wire length. Turns out mine doesn't have a lamda sensor. Very strange given that my '03 Le Mans dealer brochure proudly features it. Perhaps the early '03s didn't have them yet.

[ScuRoo]

Okay... before I go further - on my bike the O2 sensor site was relocated on the left header just in front of the oil dipstick when a MassMoto X-over was installed. The existing O2 sensor was just rerouted to that location.

Whilst my bike was noticeably freer-breathing from mid revs all the way to redline and my riding habits had shifted up the range by some 500-1000rpms - what should be noted was that there was no real actual change to my bikes modus operandi style in the low range.

There was that occasional fart, sometimes a stumble, a miss... all the usual things that’s inherent in our V11’s character.

However, after translating Ube’s 2006 posting recommendation I set to sourcing & pricing up the genuine Bosch LSH24 sensor identified as the LS3805 aka 0258003805.

Removing the existing sensor it was a surprise to find it was an NTK OZA341-BB1 sensor. More research subsequently revealed this was the NTK manufactured equivalent  to Bosch‘s LSH15 calibration curve.

After install for the first two rides on seperate days an adaptation procedure was followed:

1. Start engine & allow to idle for 5 minutes.

2. Drive vehicle for 5 minutes between 20 & 30 MPH. Do not allow RPM’s to exceed 3000 RPM’s.

3. Drive vehicle for 15 minutes between 40 & 60 MPH. Do not allow RPM’s to exceed 3000 RPM’s.

4. Stop vehicle & allow to idle for 5 minutes.
 

(It’s late - be back tomorrow... 💤)

 

[ScuRoo]

Okay, sorry for not getting back to this earlier - but got caught up with the usual stuff.

So following the two adaptation rides under 3000rpm - I went on a ride into the city of some 45 minutes with plenty of stoplights, roundabouts etc. the bike was an absolute joy - smooth, stable tempo with every manoeuvre, gear change.

Then I took the bike out beyond the suburbs to give it some gas. Perfect.

What was most notable, rolling off the throttle the bIke has lost all its pops & burbles emitted from the M4’s. Zero.

All revs, all gears, downhill coasting from high to low revs - nothing. Buttery smooth.

Even after services from various renowned Guzzi mechanics - the bike has never been better.

The new Bosch LSH24 0258003805 sensor cost €41.22 - sent from AutoDoc Germany to my friend in the UK for another €20.64 postage & 20% VAT. Friend posted it to me for around £13 all up. (AutoDoc doesn’t send items outside EU to Australia).

Anybody who has an O2 equipped V11 with the 15RC ECU should swap in a quality LSH24 sensor.

It is such an inexpensive item, easy to swap over - don’t bother with any ECU modifiers until this is done first. 

Brilliant upgrade. My bike has literally been reborn.

Safer, smooth & vigorous.

In my view - there’s nothing wrong with the Magneti Marelli 15RC ECU - any suggestion to disable O2 sensor V11’s has been made redundant. The ECU has simply been limited by GIGO - garbage in garbage out.

Get rid of those slow crappy old LSH15 sensors!

Finally, I wish to give all credit to the post by MotoUbe on Anima Guzzista forum.

Thanks to Ube - my bike is as comparably smooth to any Honda or BMW.

Cheers fella’s! 👍😎

[Tom in Virginia]

OK, kinda dumb lazy question here, should my 2003 LM have an O2 sensor installed?  I just yesterday removed the PCIII, replugged the ECU wiring back into the 15M ECU.  Going to "try" to run the GuzziDiag and see if I can work thru/get system at least up/running to check a few parameters.  Not going to make any changes though.  Bike ran very well 4k to redline.  Coughs, spits, stutters surges below 4K when off throttle or transitioning up/down.  Idles fine.

(Valves in spec, TB s balanced, air bleed screws cleaned, new plugs, new NGK plug wires, new OMRON relays (all 5),  fuel filter and pump appear ok, clean K&N air filter properly oiled, intake box cleaned of smudge, intake boots appear OK)

[docc]

AFAIK, no US V11 had oxygen sensors.

Pretty awesome SooRoo has found this simple change! Something we would have never discovered in places where the V11 has no O2 sensor . . .

(off topic, then: biggest two issues I see missing from your list @Tom in Virginia is CO Fuel Trim zero and TPS baseline.  Pretty sure those are on for the SpineRaid TechSession!)

[Tom in Virginia]

15 minutes ago, docc said:

AFAIK, no US V11 had oxygen sensors.

(off topic, then: biggest two issues I see missing from your list @Tom in Virginia is CO Fuel Trim zero and TPS baseline.  Pretty sure those are on for the SpineRaid TechSession!)

Yup, kinda hijacking this thread but here it is anyway....checking TPS now to see if its smooth transition up/down.  Seems to be but I may change TPS to a new one anyway.  Also CO Fuel Trim.  GD shows "0" on the +/_ screen with START button but then click START and GD gives me what I'd call an error screen that says "Active diagnostics could not be started".  Tried multiple ways to get by this running, ignition on, off running, motor cold/hot and hot >60C..  No help.

[docc]

(Idle is kinda low there, bud. CO looks fine.)

[Gmc28]

anyone know if the 15RC from a California works for a Lemans? i'm assuming yes, so long as the proper map is uploaded... but maybe i assume wrong.

[Tomchri]

Was kind of wondering the same thing,, because I have an 15RC  ECU with faded lettering sayingCalifornia, I think.  After reading ScuRoo's experience with the Bosch upgraded 02 sensor,,, hmm.  This woud be to easy,, where is Murff,, oh yeah there he is,, had that ECU with me last fall to Germany  -  Meinolf, and that 15RC Cali ECU wasn't programable, or whatever it is called. Meaning it is impossible to drop his latest  15M mapping into that ECU   Æh have another IPA.  This ScuRoo experience realy have me wondering  HAD great ride today with the Corsa , it was sunny and 17c, and sep 1, not bad. Left the phone home today, SHE is aging better than I .

Some hopefully understandable answers, thoughts about this,,, ( ECU to slow for info ? )   No more thinking,, just  enjoy my IPA.

Cheers tom.

 

 

[footgoose]

I have a 15M.C3 labeled for a Cali S in my parts bin. It came to me installed on a great running '03 Rosso Corsa with Mistral crossover and MG Ti cans. The bike previously owned by a former forum member. So I have to assume it was re worked somehow.....  Or interchangeable?

[ScuRoo]

4 hours ago, Tomchri said:

Some hopefully understandable answers, thoughts about this,,, ( ECU to slow for info ? )

The 15RC ECU is used on O2 sensor equipped V11’s.

The 15RC hardware also was used on later Breva’s, Nevada’s, Griso’s & I think the early Stelvio’s - with only the installed software mapping being specific to each model.

However Tomchri, just to clarify there is nothing too slow with the Magneti Marelli 15RC ECU - only the original spec LSH15 sensor slow calibration curve input wasn’t able to keep pace with what the 15RC ECU needed to produce a smooth, stable closed loop running state.

The LSH24 sensor calibration curve is 10x faster - therefore the fuelling is more accurate - the slow LSH15 sensor input influenced the lurching struggle from too lean, to too rich, back to too lean, again back to too rich ad nauseam... whilst in closed loop range.

In fact, whilst the LSH24 is 10x faster - it’s improved speed still can’t match the 15RC’s ECU’s inherent output capability.

In fact, any ECU is enhanced by having an O2 sensor to provide feedback input - this enables it to check & analyse that what it is doing (commands) is accurate in accordance to its programming parameters. However, most factory programs in closed loop have just been designed for required emissions & fuel economy. But then again if dyno mapped this emphasis can be modified for whatever the user wants. Read up on Lambda tuning.

Whether your bike has a O2 sensor or not - the first thing dyno tuners do is whack a wideband sensor up the pipe to get that essential O2 feedback.

But if your bike doesn’t come equipped with O2 - just crack open another IPA & don’t worry ‘bout all this palaver... 

8 hours ago, docc said:

AFAIK, no US V11 had oxygen sensors.

Only on those models subject to complying with the Euro emission requirements laws.

[Lucky Phil]

9 hours ago, Tom in Virginia said:

Yup, kinda hijacking this thread but here it is anyway....checking TPS now to see if its smooth transition up/down.  Seems to be but I may change TPS to a new one anyway.  Also CO Fuel Trim.  GD shows "0" on the +/_ screen with START button but then click START and GD gives me what I'd call an error screen that says "Active diagnostics could not be started".  Tried multiple ways to get by this running, ignition on, off running, motor cold/hot and hot >60C..  No help.

Have you gone into the errors page and cleared any errors? Don't know if it will help but you cant change the CO until errors are cleared.

 

Ciao

[Lucky Phil]

On 8/25/2020 at 10:36 PM, ScuRoo said:

Okay, sorry for not getting back to this earlier - but got caught up with the usual stuff.

So following the two adaptation rides under 3000rpm - I went on a ride into the city of some 45 minutes with plenty of stoplights, roundabouts etc. the bike was an absolute joy - smooth, stable tempo with every manoeuvre, gear change.

Then I took the bike out beyond the suburbs to give it some gas. Perfect.

What was most notable, rolling off the throttle the bIke has lost all its pops & burbles emitted from the M4’s. Zero.

All revs, all gears, downhill coasting from high to low revs - nothing. Buttery smooth.

Even after services from various renowned Guzzi mechanics - the bike has never been better.

The new Bosch LSH24 0258003805 sensor cost €41.22 - sent from AutoDoc Germany to my friend in the UK for another €20.64 postage & 20% VAT. Friend posted it to me for around £13 all up. (AutoDoc doesn’t send items outside EU to Australia).

Anybody who has an O2 equipped V11 with the 15RC ECU should swap in a quality LSH24 sensor.

It is such an inexpensive item, easy to swap over - don’t bother with any ECU modifiers until this is done first. 

Brilliant upgrade. My bike has literally been reborn.

Safer, smooth & vigorous.

In my view - there’s nothing wrong with the Magneti Marelli 15RC ECU - any suggestion to disable O2 sensor V11’s has been made redundant. The ECU has simply been limited by GIGO - garbage in garbage out.

Get rid of those slow crappy old LSH15 sensors!

Finally, I wish to give all credit to the post by MotoUbe on Anima Guzzista forum.

Thanks to Ube - my bike is as comparably smooth to any Honda or BMW.

Cheers fella’s! 👍😎

A few observations. As far as I'm aware the lambda closed loop function operates in steady state throttle only so acceleration/deceleration wont be affected.

Although there is temp and baro corrections applied to the mapping it doesn't mean the engine on the V11 will always run with the same responsiveness and control in all conditions. If the original map isn't quite optimal then changing engine and oat temp will still affect the way it runs, so dont count your chickens just yet. Many of us have experienced the dreaded 3000rpm hickup at one temperature and conditions and then completely fine at another set of conditions. After I went to gear driven cam I rode the bike for miles deliberately trying to induce the hickup to no avail. A few rides later in different conditions there it was again. Popping on the over run can be eliminated with either by enriching the CO slightly or better still adjusting the fuel map in the area it occurs at the min throttle point on the fuel map. Assuming of course there are no exhaust leaks or leaking exhaust valves.

Another point, with your lambda sensor fitted to one header pipe only you are getting corrections for the left cylinder only and the right and left have different maps due to their different fuelling and ignition requirements.

Ciao

   

[Tom in Virginia]

8 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

Have you gone into the errors page and cleared any errors? Don't know if it will help but you cant change the CO until errors are cleared.

I cleared the 2 faults indicated.  Last night I changed out TPS with a new one and set it as close to157mV  as possible.  I'll inform after completing another decent tuneup process. (note the black line that shows gaps as I throttle upwards and back down.  Appears that is where the bike is stumbling and popping/surging.  Hope new tuneup process resolves these holes)