ECU limited by stock O2

[Gmc28]

13 hours ago, ScuRoo said:

The 15RC ECU is used on O2 sensor equipped V11’s.

The 15RC hardware also was used on later Breva’s, Nevada’s, Griso’s & I think the early Stelvio’s - with only the installed software mapping being specific to each model.

However Tomchri, just to clarify there is nothing too slow with the Magneti Marelli 15RC ECU - only the original spec LSH15 sensor slow calibration curve input wasn’t able to keep pace with what the 15RC ECU needed to produce a smooth, stable closed loop running state.

The LSH24 sensor calibration curve is 10x faster - therefore the fuelling is more accurate - the slow LSH15 sensor input influenced the lurching struggle from too lean, to too rich, back to too lean, again back to too rich ad nauseam... whilst in closed loop range.

In fact, whilst the LSH24 is 10x faster - it’s improved speed still can’t match the 15RC’s ECU’s inherent output capability.

In fact, any ECU is enhanced by having an O2 sensor to provide feedback input - this enables it to check & analyse that what it is doing (commands) is accurate in accordance to its programming parameters. However, most factory programs in closed loop have just been designed for required emissions & fuel economy. But then again if dyno mapped this emphasis can be modified for whatever the user wants. Read up on Lambda tuning.

Whether your bike has a O2 sensor or not - the first thing dyno tuners do is whack a wideband sensor up the pipe to get that essential O2 feedback.

But if your bike doesn’t come equipped with O2 - just crack open another IPA & don’t worry ‘bout all this palaver... 

Only on those models subject to complying with the Euro emission requirements laws.

"The 15RC ECU is used on O2 sensor equipped V11’s."

So, even if not O2 sensor equipped, if a 15M/non-O2 sensor bike had aftermarket exhaust with sensor bung, and added the dongle (ran the wiring to a sensor, and plugged into the bung), the RC should work?

Partly curiosity, and partly because i'll be playing with ECU and map options on the "other" V11 in the shop this winter (as mentioned in our PM)

[Tomchri]

My 03 Rosso Corsa has a 02 sensor, not connected since there is a 15M ECU onboard,, with great mapping.  She runs very good, sometimes somedays, she has to open her mouth a little bit, tiny sneeze, hick, nothing serious.

Since I have a 15RC Cali ECU on the shelf,    out of curiosity I will install a new Bosch 02 sensor and the 15RC, and see what happens ?

Cheers tom. 

[ScuRoo]

4 hours ago, Tomchri said:

Since I have a 15RC Cali ECU on the shelf,    out of curiosity I will install a new Bosch 02 sensor and the 15RC, and see what happens ?

Cheers tom. 

👍😋 

Curiosity got the better of me too after I translated Ube’s post - and importantly the procedure was easy & the price was right!

I also had another bung welded in on my right exhaust when mounting my MassMoto crossover so I can swap it over from left to right as I wish.

(like to have two in unison if possible!)

I half expected, if nothing else - I’d have merely renewed a consumable item as they are a finite component so would be no harm done.

But the more you look into it - be happy not all sensors are created equal...!

The LSH24 upgrade is far better for O2 15RC V11’s. It’s low/mid (under 4000rpm) changed manners - smooth, stable & superior performance is phenomenal. Another observation I should add - the boundary between closed & open & back again is seamless.

The ECU may well be the brain but the O2 sensor is its spinal cord - together the Central Nervous System!

Let’s finesse a little more - & differentiate open & closed...

 

Open loop is basically a system without feedback - it doesn’t make any adjustments if the fuel mixture is not burning well & will run rich or lean at any given time with no correction.

 

A motorcycle operating within closed loop will sense unburned oxygen & sends a signal to the ECU that will allow the ECU to correct the mixture for the next firing.

 

An oxygen sensor is a chemical generator - it’s constantly making a comparison between the oxygen in the exhaust manifold & the air outside - if this comparison shows little or no oxygen in the exhaust a voltage is generated.

 

With the ECU utilising O2 sensor feedback to adjust the fuel/air mixture - the time constant of the sensor is CRITICAL - as the ability of the ECU to control the fuel/air ratio depends upon the response time of the sensor.

A sluggish O2 response time degrades the ECU system performance. Failing O2 sensor symptoms include:

• increased emissions,
• increased fuel consumption,
• hesitation on acceleration,
• stalling,
• surging or hunting,
• rough idling.

The O2 sensor is constantly in a state of transition between high & low voltage. Manufacturers call this crossing of the 0.45 volt mark O2 “cross counts”. The more cross counts the oxygen sensor generates, the better the sensor.

 

The higher the cross count, the shorter the time period  - and the more responsive the total system. This improved LSH24 lightning oscillation & constant flip-flop back & forth from rich to lean allows the ECU to operate at peak efficiency.

[Lucky Phil]

27 minutes ago, ScuRoo said:

👍😋 

Curiosity got the better of me too after I translated Ube’s post - and importantly the procedure was easy & the price was right!

I also had another bung welded in on my right exhaust when mounting my MassMoto crossover so I can swap it over from left to right as I wish.

(like to have two in unison if possible!)

I half expected, if nothing else - I’d have merely renewed a consumable item as they are a finite component so would be no harm done.

But the more you look into it - be happy not all sensors are created equal...!

The LSH24 upgrade is far better for O2 15RC V11’s. It’s low/mid (under 4000rpm) changed manners - smooth, stable & superior performance is phenomenal. Another observation I should add - the boundary between closed & open & back again is seamless.

The ECU may well be the brain but the O2 sensor is its spinal cord - together the Central Nervous System!

Let’s finesse a little more - & differentiate open & closed...

 

Open loop is basically a system without feedback - it doesn’t make any adjustments if the fuel mixture is not burning well & will run rich or lean at any given time with no correction.

 

A motorcycle operating within closed loop will sense unburned oxygen & sends a signal to the ECU that will allow the ECU to correct the mixture for the next firing.

 

An oxygen sensor is a chemical generator - it’s constantly making a comparison between the oxygen in the exhaust manifold & the air outside - if this comparison shows little or no oxygen in the exhaust a voltage is generated.

 

With the ECU utilising O2 sensor feedback to adjust the fuel/air mixture - the time constant of the sensor is CRITICAL - as the ability of the ECU to control the fuel/air ratio depends upon the response time of the sensor.

A sluggish O2 response time degrades the ECU system performance. Failing O2 sensor symptoms include:

• increased emissions,
• increased fuel consumption,
• hesitation on acceleration,
• stalling,
• surging or hunting,
• rough idling.

The O2 sensor is constantly in a state of transition between high & low voltage. Manufacturers call this crossing of the 0.45 volt mark O2 “cross counts”. The more cross counts the oxygen sensor generates, the better the sensor.

 

The higher the cross count, the shorter the time period  - and the more responsive the total system. This improved LSH24 lightning oscillation & constant flip-flop back & forth from rich to lean allows the ECU to operate at peak efficiency.

We are again getting into the area of the "Theorists" as opposed to actuality. Every bike I currently own carburates perfectly on an open loop injection system and so has pretty much every bike I've owned over the last 35 years when I got my first injected bike. 

As I have pointed out the open loop only works on steady state throttle anyway and was primarily an emission driven facility and to keep cat converters alive. How often do people think the Closed loop feature is actually doing anything? How often are you in a steady state throttle situation? Reading your post makes it seem like if your bike doesn't have a "closed loop" system then it's going to carburate horribly and return very poor fuel economy.The facts dont of course bear this out. A nicely mapped open loop system engine will be a very pleasant thing to ride and will carburate very nicely. Personally the closed loop function is just another thing to go wrong that I dont see a great benefit to except that on a freeway it may return slightly better economy and lower emissions.

Lots of owners out there simply disable it anyway via Guzzidiag. 

The K series BMW's had the worst injection system I've ever experienced with it's inlet flow sensor that gave the slowest throttle response you could imagine. Ok system for a car but when you want an engine to respond instantly to the right wrist for rapid down shifts it was horrible. The K75 was even worse than the K100 

Ciao

[ScuRoo]

Please yourself LP - don’t lose sight of the fact that Ube’s recommended tip is in ‘actuality’ now installed on my bike - the experiment has been performed - it’s been put to the test. I confirmed for myself the benefits, as recommended are real.

Nothing too ‘Theorists’ about that to my mind. Everything else is just waffle, heck, it’s a forum - but the reality of implementation results is what counts.

Ube is highly respected on the AG forum - he’s a Guzzi specialist mechanic.

It’s only a few buck$ O2 people - yet you’ll get back 10x the results.
It’s reversible - what’s not to like?

It’s unfortunate imo for those owners of O2 equipped 15RC bikes on this forum that SimoneV11’s post here on V11lemans wasn’t picked up on back in 2008...
________________________

SIMONEV11 

Posted May 10, 2008

THE PROBE is LAMBDA you MUST BRING THE BOSCH LSH24 

YOU HAVE THE LAW TOO SLOWLY LSH15
________________________

Anyhoo... seems your mind’s closed on this Lucky Phil - & you don’t have the V11 models that this O2 swap would benefit anyhow... so I’ll close loop & refer you back to carefully reread Ube’s post and reiterate Ube’s comment, “the bike is more enjoyable etc”.

Ciao down

[Tomchri]

Called a local whole saler today about the Bosch LSH24 sensor, æø what, 3300kr + 25% vat, around 400$ +   Found on the interweb  for about 40  Euro, somebody having steaks served every day. But for 65 - 70 Euro I will D try it.

And ScuRoo, woud you mind bringing on further behavior experiences, different weather and so. Still perfect behavior ? Why not drill a hole in the middle of the  crossover (Mistral ) and weld a 18mm nut in,,  instead of having the 02 sensor on the header, or one on each side ? Hope I make this tuning experience  before season is over.

Cheers tom.

 

[Lucky Phil]

19 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

We are again getting into the area of the "Theorists" as opposed to actuality. Every bike I currently own carburates perfectly on an open loop injection system and so has pretty much every bike I've owned over the last 35 years when I got my first injected bike. 

As I have pointed out the open loop only works on steady state throttle anyway and was primarily an emission driven facility and to keep cat converters alive. How often do people think the Closed loop feature is actually doing anything? How often are you in a steady state throttle situation? Reading your post makes it seem like if your bike doesn't have a "closed loop" system then it's going to carburate horribly and return very poor fuel economy.The facts dont of course bear this out. A nicely mapped open loop system engine will be a very pleasant thing to ride and will carburate very nicely. Personally the closed loop function is just another thing to go wrong that I dont see a great benefit to except that on a freeway it may return slightly better economy and lower emissions.

Lots of owners out there simply disable it anyway via Guzzidiag. 

The K series BMW's had the worst injection system I've ever experienced with it's inlet flow sensor that gave the slowest throttle response you could imagine. Ok system for a car but when you want an engine to respond instantly to the right wrist for rapid down shifts it was horrible. The K75 was even worse than the K100 

Ciao

I think you miss my point. Nobody is arguing a wide band lambda sensor isn't way better instrument than a std narrow band sensor, that's something that's been known for years. My argument is you can have a very nicely running engine with NO lambda sensor at all OR the lambda probe disabled which lots of people do.

The lambda sensor isn't some magical device and the answer to good fuel injection. If you are going to have one installed and operational then surprise,surprise the more expensive higher spec one will do a better job. 

Ciao 

[Lucky Phil]

19 minutes ago, Tomchri said:

Called a local whole saler today about the Bosch LSH24 sensor, æø what, 3300kr + 25% vat, around 400$ +   Found on the interweb  for about 40  Euro, somebody having steaks served every day. But for 65 - 70 Euro I will D try it.

And ScuRoo, woud you mind bringing on further behavior experiences, different weather and so. Still perfect behavior ? Why not drill a hole in the middle of the  crossover (Mistral ) and weld a 18mm nut in,,  instead of having the 02 sensor on the header, or one on each side ? Hope I make this tuning experience  before season is over.

Cheers tom.

 

I made this point earlier. What sort of magical improvement can you expect with the sensor in the left header only? The 15M has an offset map for the r/h cylinder and runs slightly different fueling to the l/h cylinder. If you are going to run a Lambda then you need the sensor in the crossover or run one in each header to get the most benefit.

Ciao

[Tomchri]

9 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

Why not drill a hole in the middle of the  crossover (Mistral ) and weld a 18mm nut in,,  instead of having the 02 sensor on the header, or one on each side ? Hope I make this tuning experience  before season is over.

No magic expected, just another behavior experience  with the V11 for little money. And gives me something to do.

Cheers tom.

[Lucky Phil]

On 9/4/2020 at 9:47 AM, Tomchri said:

No magic expected, just another behavior experience  with the V11 for little money. And gives me something to do.

Cheers tom.

Why dont you just turn off the lambda altogether and see how it runs/ If for nothing more than a baseline comparison for what ever you do. As I mentioned before the lambda sensor was only introduced to keep cat converters happy and is emissions related, it's not something that somehow enhances the open loop system and makes it magically way better.

ciao   

[Tomchri]

02 sensor is not connected on my 03 RC, and using a 15M ECU with Meinolf's mapping. Meaning she is running very well. Since I have a spare 15RC, I do it out of curiosity and for fun. 

Cheers tom.

[footgoose]

1 hour ago, Tomchri said:

02 sensor is not connected on my 03 RC, and using a 15M ECU with Meinolf's mapping. Meaning she is running very well. Since I have a spare 15RC, I do it out of curiosity and for fun. 

Cheers tom.

That is how I learn

[ScuRoo]

FYI: ULEB

The Ultra Low Emission Bike is a cooperation between GET Gas Engine Technology BV and htm-moto. The decisive factor for the development of the Ultra Low Emission Bikes was that the number of newly registered motorcycles worldwide increases every year, but the requirements for the "cleanliness" of the exhaust gases are disproportionately low.

Source: Federal Environment Agency Germany
The basis for achieving the EURO 4 standard for a motorcycle is the use of the most modern exhaust technology, which includes the following components:
 - heated, regulated three-way cat
 - secondary air system
 - own engine management system
 - heated lambda probes for each cylinder with cylinder selective
   Mixture control

 
A Moto Guzzi V11 with an air-cooled two-cylinder four-stroke engine serves as the basis for development
(90 ° -V), longitudinal crankshaft and two OHV.
Engine output of the original: 67 kW (91PS).

The following were measured:
 - ECE-40 city cycle
 - EUDC Extra Urban Driving cycle
 - ADAC Autobahn cycle
 - MVEG (incl. Cold start) car cycle
 - WMTC New World Motorcycle Test Cycle

After 3 years of development work, we reached an important interim goal in December 2000 - the EURO 3 standard.

Only one year later in December 2001 we reached our real goal:
Compliance with the EURO 4 standard under the conditions of
WMTC driving cycle.

Drivability and consumption
The drivability of the Ultra Low Emission Bikes was rated by riders from the magazines Das Motorrad, Moto73 and touring riders, with the result "very good".

The fuel consumption has been significantly reduced:

16.5: 1 [km / lit] ULEB 3.9 lit / 100 km @ 100 km / h
6.8 lit / 100 km @ 160 km / h
12.6: 1 [km / lit] standard V11 5.0 & 4.8 lit / 100 km @ 100 km / h
7.3 & 8.1 lit / 100 km @ 160 km / h
Comparison between WMTC and MVEG driving cycle

- The high-speed phase is significantly longer in the WMTC cycle (approx. 400s
  between 100km / h and 120km / h)
- the MVEG cycle contains more idle phases
- the WMTC cycle contains more acceleration cycles
- the WMTC cycle is much more dynamic
- the WMTC cycle requires more throttle opening
- because of the longer measuring time, there is a longer one in the WMTC cycle
  Exhaust gas dilution instead

Below you will find some measurement records of the cycles run:
(click link)

http://www.historical.get-bv.com/german/uleb.html

[ScuRoo]

For all those late model V11’s (15RC ECU with oem O2 sensor) improving/ maximising your bikes O2 signalling speed pays dividends.

Mr Cameron’s recent article expands on how fast modern ECU’s can be...

“Digital fuel injection is like having your own highly experienced professional race tuner constantly optimizing the operation of your engine.

If it seems impossible that so much computation can keep up with a 12,000-rpm engine, consider that the clock speed of some modern ECUs is 40 mHz; that is, the computer moves through 40 million switching states per second. Remember, too, that the speed of electronic signals is high and the dimensions of a computer chip are tiny. One revolution of a motorcycle crankshaft turning at 12,000 rpm takes 60/12,000 = .005 second, so during one turn of the crank the ECU can perform 200,000 clock cycles. Digital is fast.“

Simply upgrading to the LSH24 unleashes the 15RC ECU from the limiting LSH15 faulty (slow) sensor speed & is paramount to installing a modern ECU & rebooting the refinement level to a hiccup free silky smooth 100%. 👍😋

https://www.cycleworld.com/story/blogs/ask-kevin/motorcycle-carburetor-and-fuel-injection-explained/?utm_source=sendinblue&utm_campaign=CYW Sunday Best 122621&utm_medium=email

[p6x]

I personally apply Murphy's law; you know if it works, don't touch it.

Although the temptation to intervene is there, simply because you want to keep up with curiosity, or self satisfaction that you did it too, I have scaled back my ambitions to make my personal V11 closer to the perfection it aspires to be.

Of course, I have multiple excuses that I comfort myself with. The main one, is the bike runs reasonably well; and I use it as much as I can. Immobilizing it if not completely necessary does not sound the healthy alternative to me.

The current Houston weather is an invitation to do everything on your Guzzi, and that's what I am going to do. My front tire is ready to give up, and it was brand new before I fixed my odometer...