gstallons Posted August 24, 2020 Posted August 24, 2020 Cosmo , the traditional computer controlled fuel/ignition systems have two categories of operation . 1 open loop . the computer runs the system in a fixed parameter according to "some" inputs and a designed program of operation . 2 closed loop . this is when a computer system reaches a target through coolant or engine temperature to begin making decisions on ignition timing , fuel (amount)delivery , etc..... 3 closed loop on your vehicle equipped with oxygen sensors . When a vehicle reaches operating temperature where the oxygen sensor(s) can start being the final authority on what has taken place in the combustion process .
Lucky Phil Posted August 24, 2020 Posted August 24, 2020 3 hours ago, cosmo said: I do not have a Lambda sensor on the crossover which as memory serves me is F by F. W/Mistral cans and K&N filter. So ,I am Ditching the PClll and I'll continue without it. Starting over. I don't understand "closed loop" or much else about the mapping and am going to seek info on it to understand it better so I don't F#*&! anything up. Thank you all for helping. Will post progress. Lost the PCommander. Checked the cable download. Good. Still only getting to the point where the drop down asks "Ignition off for 10 sec, hit ok, turn on ignition, if you hear the fuel pump, close the program and try again. Again and again, many times. Well I continually hear the fuel pump each time. (Does the program normally keep the fuel pump switched off?) If I continue and hit ok, a timer starts on the bottom of the drop down (15 sec) for switching the ignition on. If I proceed and turn on the bike on I'll get a notification box stating ,"Switch ignition off." So its either not connecting to, or not "seeing" the ecu for some reason. I've tried mznyc's suggestion of trying over and over to no avail. At a loss as to the issue. Perhaps I'll borrow a laptop w/windows to eliminate a problem with the laptop I'm using. Doubt its that, but grasping at straws. Think I'll take it for a spin and see what's changed in the way it runs with the stock map. Have you tried turning the ignition "on" then hitting OK? Thats what the screen says to do, not hit OK and then turn the ignition "on" as you state in your post. Don't know if it matters but I follow instructions to the letter and have never had an issue. Ciao
jtucker Posted August 24, 2020 Posted August 24, 2020 Just curious... has anyone ever installed a 15RC (and lambda sensor) on a bike originally equipped with a 15M? My bike has a fair bit of engine work (ports, cam, hi-comp pistons...) and it runs with a 15M + Power Commander map that was generated for a somewhat similar bike, but not specifically for *my* bike. I've sort of wished that I could chuck the PCIII and go with a properly flashed (closed loop) system instead, but short of Cliff Jefferies My15m ECU, I didn't know if there were any other viable options. __Jason
Lucky Phil Posted August 24, 2020 Posted August 24, 2020 33 minutes ago, gstallons said: Cosmo , the traditional computer controlled fuel/ignition systems have two categories of operation . 1 open loop . the computer runs the system in a fixed parameter according to "some" inputs and a designed program of operation . 2 closed loop . this is when a computer system reaches a target through coolant or engine temperature to begin making decisions on ignition timing , fuel (amount)delivery , etc..... 3 closed loop on your vehicle equipped with oxygen sensors . When a vehicle reaches operating temperature where the oxygen sensor(s) can start being the final authority on what has taken place in the combustion process . This is not entirely correct. The closed loop function has no influence over ignition and its influence is in a steady state throttle situation only. So basically in a cruise mode where it looks at the exhaust and determines if it's rich or lean via a voltage produced by the sensor. On a Guzzi its a crude wide band sensor so all it sees is rich or lean and then switches the ecu accordingly. It is literally like a switching situation.This can lead to a slight and annoying surging feeling on some bikes and cars as well in the steady state throttle situation. It's all about emissions and turning it off which you can do through diag. I've never heard of someone disabling it and having a complaint. Ciao
gstallons Posted August 25, 2020 Posted August 25, 2020 Thank you for your input . I am referring to open/closed loop throughout the industry concerning computer controlled engine management . Not MG .
pete roper Posted August 25, 2020 Posted August 25, 2020 50 minutes ago, jtucker said: Just curious... has anyone ever installed a 15RC (and lambda sensor) on a bike originally equipped with a 15M? My bike has a fair bit of engine work (ports, cam, hi-comp pistons...) and it runs with a 15M + Power Commander map that was generated for a somewhat similar bike, but not specifically for *my* bike. I've sort of wished that I could chuck the PCIII and go with a properly flashed (closed loop) system instead, but short of Cliff Jefferies My15m ECU, I didn't know if there were any other viable options. __Jason You can download the map using 'Reader' turn off the lambda input and then change anything you like using Tunerpro and upload the finished result using 'Writer'. Power commanders are so last century Darling!😁 1 1
cosmo Posted August 25, 2020 Author Posted August 25, 2020 No noticeable difference in the way it runs . Just ain't right, and still pops, farts, backfires. Ticks me off ! Takes all the fun out of it. The up side is it blows all the dust out of the air filter every time it backfires !!! That's a mighty clean air filter ya' got there Son ! I've tried loading the reader more than 50, less than a 100 times. AND will continue trying because I'm a glutton for punishment. Probably go through the tune up and air leak routines again. Hoping it is something mechanical (much easier to deal with than the flow of electrons). Guzzler you are correct about the PClll's back in the day and Tomchri I'd like to know what fine tuning you use the 5 lb sledge hammer in the lower left of the first pic for ? Did you threaten your electronics ? Please let me know if it works. I'm starting to get the urge myself. 1
jtucker Posted August 25, 2020 Posted August 25, 2020 23 minutes ago, pete roper said: You can download the map using 'Reader' turn off the lambda input and then change anything you like using Tunerpro and upload the finished result using 'Writer'. Power commanders are so last century Darling!😁 Oh, I'm well aware. The fundamental problem with that is, if you don't have solid data on what needs to be changed and why (such as, from a lambda sensor), you're just going to be blindly turning knobs, and generally not much good comes of that. In theory, my bike should benefit from timing changes as well (which the PCIII can't do), but again... where and how much? Let me get out my crystal ball... An experienced tuner might know where to begin, but... I'm not that __Jason
cosmo Posted August 25, 2020 Author Posted August 25, 2020 Lucky Phil , if you are correct about the ok, you will hear my scream from your back porch. I actually am not sure at the moment. Also if your correct, after I'm done feeling very, very, stupid I'll be mailing you a beer. Thank you gentlemen. 1
Lucky Phil Posted August 25, 2020 Posted August 25, 2020 20 minutes ago, jtucker said: Oh, I'm well aware. The fundamental problem with that is, if you don't have solid data on what needs to be changed and why (such as, from a lambda sensor), you're just going to be blindly turning knobs, and generally not much good comes of that. In theory, my bike should benefit from timing changes as well (which the PCIII can't do), but again... where and how much? Let me get out my crystal ball... An experienced tuner might know where to begin, but... I'm not that __Jason You outline the issue I had with mapping the Daytona engine from a different ECU but it's not the headache you might think just time consuming and you can use Tunerpro to look at plenty of other peoples .bin files to shorten up the process. So when I needed to use the Daytona/Centauro mapping from a 16M ecu to a 15M ecu ( both use different XDF files to read the .bin files) I was also able through the generosity of others around the world to read a lot of other .bin files for standard and modified maps and use them as a reference. You can read the process in my build thread but essentially I had enough information on maps to look at what had worked for others and mix and match to suit what I thought might be needed on my bike. So for instance you have a problem in one area you can look at 6 other .bin files and say well gee mine is way richer here than all the others so obviously I need to lean it out here, whats the leanest of them all and make a judgement about where you go with the change. So forth and so on. It's not going to be better than a few hours on the dyno but you can get it running very well indeed and at the very least try some basic stuff in areas that you have an issue. You're never going to wreck an engine by taking small steps on the mapping riding it around at road speeds unless you are silly. You will feel or even hear any issue thats a problem but always err on the side of caution. My first 2 maps were much too rich and didn't have the engine running very well, at all but once I managed to get a look at what a standard centi map looked like and then a daytona and 2 modified centi maps that had worked I had a ton of info to look at and make sensible decisions. Ciao 1
Lucky Phil Posted August 25, 2020 Posted August 25, 2020 26 minutes ago, cosmo said: Lucky Phil , if you are correct about the ok, you will hear my scream from your back porch. I actually am not sure at the moment. Also if your correct, after I'm done feeling very, very, stupid I'll be mailing you a beer. Thank you gentlemen. No guarantees here but I hope its a factor. I'm trying to actually remember all the steps for the process as it worked so well for me I never had to contend with any problems other than forgetting I had the kill switch off at one point. ciao
Tomchri Posted August 25, 2020 Posted August 25, 2020 7 hours ago, cosmo said: No noticeable difference in the way it runs . Just ain't right, and still pops, farts, backfires. Ticks me off ! Takes all the fun out of it. The up side is it blows all the dust out of the air filter every time it backfires !!! That's a mighty clean air filter ya' got there Son ! I've tried loading the reader more than 50, less than a 100 times. AND will continue trying because I'm a glutton for punishment. Probably go through the tune up and air leak routines again. Hoping it is something mechanical (much easier to deal with than the flow of electrons). Guzzler you are correct about the PClll's back in the day and Tomchri I'd like to know what fine tuning you use the 5 lb sledge hammer in the lower left of the first pic for ? Did you threaten your electronics ? Please let me know if it works. I'm starting to get the urge myself. Bring out the hammer, my threatening device for electronic's, . Wish I coud quide you thru, I just loaded down readers and writers and and, there I was. I still feel I need the hammer visible. Story will follow, just saying good luck. Cheers tom.
pete roper Posted August 25, 2020 Posted August 25, 2020 When does it pop and bang? Under load? On the over-run? At idle? More information would help.
cosmo Posted August 25, 2020 Author Posted August 25, 2020 Pops under neutral to extremely light acceleration/deceleration throttle around 2800 to 3800 rpm. Below 3k it seems hesitant to the idea of acceleration. Will also hick-up idling, occasionally stopping the motor. Especially cold. None of this happens all the time. Seems to backfire at speed more once it warms up, but idles better. Going to check the valves and tps this evening just to be redundant. I will be trying to get the GD to connect also. Thanks
Lucky Phil Posted August 25, 2020 Posted August 25, 2020 1 hour ago, cosmo said: Pops under neutral to extremely light acceleration/deceleration throttle around 2800 to 3800 rpm. Below 3k it seems hesitant to the idea of acceleration. Will also hick-up idling, occasionally stopping the motor. Especially cold. None of this happens all the time. Seems to backfire at speed more once it warms up, but idles better. Going to check the valves and tps this evening just to be redundant. I will be trying to get the GD to connect also. Thanks Whats the fuel pressure like? have you changed the fuel filter? Ciao
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