Engine will not shutdown

[docc]

1 hour ago, gstallons said:

This may / may not help you , but you should replace all relays w/the part # docc gave you . 

this is going to be a small problem causing a lot of trouble . 

 

I believe @Rolf Halvorsen still has a supply of these G8HE-1C7T-R-DC12 in Norway. Otherwise, from the US:

https://www.onlinecomponents.com/omron-electronics/g8he1c7trdc12-42670683.html 

Even though a Relay#2, stuck closed, puts power to these circuits, it is hard to decide it could do it alone without another fault . . .

[edit: although, when I jump across ("hot wire") Relay#2 I get odd illumination of the warning lights with the Ignition and Run Switch off.]

[JKV11]

Relays #2 and #3 are the same (Siemens-A1001-A402). I can exchange them, and nothing changes.

If the ignition switch is on, the engine keeps on running, if the ignition switch is off and i pull #1,#2 or #3 the electrical system shutsdown.

[gstallons]

Do you have your original owner's manual ? does you wiring diagram in the back of the book show fuse 8 being used or is it empty ?

[JKV11]

Fuse 8 is a spare.

[Kiwi_Roy]

I think this may be the appropriate wiring diagram  Fuse 8 is spare, no electrical petcock

Removing Fuse 1 or fuse 2 or the relays (46) or (49) associated with the ECU should stop the engine do you agree, I think the relays are 4 & 5 in position.

The main interlock through the one way connector (57) to relay (49) coil MUST turn off with the key OR the kill switch, the relay base is a good place to verify that with a test light io chassis.

Click on the diagram to Zoom in.

[Kiwi_Roy]

A thought occurred to me, has this bike suffered from a meltdown in the wiring, any burnt ground wires around the ECU or the ground wire from the Voltage regulator to battery negative?

 

Its really difficult to troubleshoot remotely when you are not sure exactly what version of the wiring diagram you have.

[JKV11]

53 minutes ago, Kiwi_Roy said:

I think this may be the appropriate wiring diagram  Fuse 8 is spare, no electrical petcock

Removing Fuse 1 or fuse 2 or the relays (46) or (49) associated with the ECU should stop the engine do you agree, I think the relays are 4 & 5 in position.

Click on the diagram to Zoom in.

1 hour ago, gstallons said:

Do you have your original owner's manual ? does you wiring diagram in the back of the book show fuse 8 being used or is it empty ?

 

I do think that is the wiring diagram (atleast it is the diagram i use for maesring).

and yes the engine stops when i pull Fuse 1 or 2 or relays #4 or #5 but they don's shutdown the entire electrical system.

When i pull out relay #1 , #2 or #3 or fuse #5 the electical system does shutdown. And wenn i pull teh clutch lever and push the start buton.

Quote

40 minutes ago, Kiwi_Roy said:

A thought occurred to me, has this bike suffered from a meltdown in the wiring, any burnt ground wires around the ECU or the ground wire from the Voltage regulator to battery negative?

 

There are no signals of problems with the wiring harness, everywhere i can check de wires look good (not roasted) and i don't smell anything.

[docc]

4 hours ago, Kiwi_Roy said:

A thought occurred to me, has this bike suffered from a meltdown in the wiring, any burnt ground wires around the ECU or the ground wire from the Voltage regulator to battery negative?

 

Its really difficult to troubleshoot remotely when you are not sure exactly what version of the wiring diagram you have.

Yes, this failure is difficult to see without exposing the wiring:

[JKV11]

49 minutes ago, docc said:

Yes, this failure is difficult to see without exposing the wiring:

But I don’t hope I have to take the entire wiring harnas apart to look for damage like this. And certainly not because there is no sign of wire harness damage (except for the strange behaviour). 

[PeterT]

I agree with the comments of previous contributors but, to me, the most revealing and interesting bit of information that would seem to help locate the problem is the rather odd phenomenon that the engine does shut down when you pull in the clutch and press the start button. This action energises the starter relay which, apart from putting voltage on the starter motor contactor, it turns off the voltage powering the Lights Relay, thus de-energising the lights, including brake lights, headlights etc while starting.  This is fed from Fuse F5, so I would anticipate that pulling out fuse F5 would also shut down the engine when the ignition switch is off.  If it doesn't then this would further help locate the cause of the problem as it would imply that there is some connectionbetween the Yellow/Black wire feeding Fuse F5 and the Orange/Blue wire from the ignition switch.

So, assuming Fuse 5 does stop the engine, then the fact that pulling in the clutch and pressing the starter also allows the engine to be turned off, then this must imply that there is a spurious connection between this lighting circuit (the Red/Black wire coming out of the Lights relay) and the circuit coming out from contact 3 of the ignition switch, i.e. this fault is bypassing the ignition switch and keeping this contact 3 wire (Orange/Blue) live.  You should be able to pin point it further if you see what difference having the side-stand down or not since this connects up the White wire coming out of the side-stand switch that goes all the way back to the Neutral Gear Relay. 

If the phenomenon occurs with the side stand down, (White wire de-energised) then the location of the spurious connection is more constrained.  The Red/Black lighting wire must be spuriously powering the Orange/Blue ignition switch contact 3 wire.  These wires do not share the 5-way AMP connector to the RH handlebar controls and front brake so it cannot really occur there. but both wires do share wiring to the the large 12-way Amp connector at the front of the bike powering all the warning lights and instruments.   Try putting the headlight on main beam and testing if this allows the ignition switch to stop the engine.  If it does, it implies that the spurious fault is on the Lo beam part of the wiring, Green/Grey, that also goes to the 12-way AMP connector.  If it doesn't change anything and the engine keeps running then it would imply that the spurious connection is between the Red/Black wire going to the 12-way connector and the Orange/Blue wire also going to the connector.  Both these wires come from relays at the rear of the bike so, as previous people have suggested, it could be some kind of wiring harness fault, possibly caused by an overheated wire (probably either the live or neutral wires coming out of the regulator.  To my mind having two parallel 15A wires to make up the 30A generator capacity is a fundamental electrical design flaw.   It obviously works if the wires correctly share the current but we know that poor charging can often be caused by poor contacts often in the 4-way connector that isn't sealed because it is a spade type (Amp connectors won't take the amount of current).  It is at the front of the bike, near the oil cooler and can easily get a bit of corrosion due to water ingress (and salt if you live in the UK and use the bike in the winter).  This will cause slightly higher and different contact resistances, the current will not be shared evenly, potentially being taken by only one wire if the contact resistance becomes significant.  You won't know its happening but the wire will be overloaded, particularly soon after start-up when recharging currents are 22-25A.  This could melt the insulation and cause a faults and spurious connections in other wires.

So, if you are lucky you will find the spurious connection at either the 12-way Amp connector at the front end, or at the wiring to the relays, but it may be in the harness in between.  At least you know which wires are involved.  And this leads me to a suggestion to avoid stripping out the harness.  If you can isolate the exact wires that are shorting out by disconnecting them at both ends but still finding that they are connected inside the harness, then keep them disconnected and run a pair of parallel wire between the ends to take their place. 

You should try disconnecting the 12-way connector and seeing whether your non-stopping problem disappears.  If it does then the fault is on the lighting, warning light, instrument side of this connector but if the problem persists then the fault is definitely on the feed-in side of the AMP connector.   Also see if de-energising the Lo beam wire makes a difference.  Using careful logic is the best way to identify the problem.

 

I hope this is helpful and shows that you should be able to avoid stripping the harness.  

[JKV11]

On 8/31/2020 at 8:57 PM, PeterT said:

I agree with the comments of ...

Thank you very much for your detailed response!

If i pull fuse 5 the electrical system does shutdown.

Pullinig the clutch and pushing the start buton is only to shut off the electrical system. i have already stopt the engine with the kill switch, and it only works when the ignition switch is off.

Everthing i tried so far is with the side-stand down.

If the engine is running (ignition switch off) and the side-stand is down and i shift out of neutral the electrical system shuts down

The lights, high and low beam work, parking light, direction indicatorlights don't

Horn works

The 12-way connector is it placed under the tank?

[PeterT]

The 10-way is strapped to the down-frame tube under the tank but near to the steering head bearing.  I think the 12-way is somewhere close, either to the 10-way or nearer to the instrument panel.  I can't be too certain as my V11 was modified by Ghezzi Brian and had a new dashboard and headlights but looking on the parts list diagram, there seem to be two large connectors (the 10 and presumably the 12) in similar positions which look like being near the steering head bearing

Your further diagnostic tests are very interesting particularly the fact that the parking and direction indicators are not working.  This may just be collateral damage if something has overheated or broken/fused.  I'm assuming that you checked Fuse 6 and 7, that powers these two functions, and they are good.  What would also be interesting to know is whether if you remove fuses 6 and 7, if with the ignition turned ON, you can detect 12 V on one side of both these fuses.  If you can't then there is a problem, either in the ignition switch or between the ignition switch, contact 2 (Yellow/Red) and these fuses that it feeds directly.  If you do detect 12V on one side of both fuses then the fault is obviously downstream of the fuse but I'm struggling to see a common failure mode that would affect both Parking and direction indicators at the same time as once the power splits through fuses 6 and 7, the parking light and the direction indicator wiring looks to me to be on separate circuits unless the fault is on a common neutral wire. 

Something else you should be aware of is that virtually all the black neutral wires that go back to the -ve terminal are not shown on the wiring diagram, presumably to help simplify an already overcrowded diagram.  But they do exist.  Don't be fooled by all the little earth symbols that appear to show that the -ve side of components are earthed locally and return through the metal frame; they don't, these earth symbols really mean that a black wire runs from this point back to the battery -ve terminal.  On my bike (Cafe Sport >=2004) the only current that comes to the battery via the big frame strap connected to the crank/gear case is the current from the starter motor, which is really odd as this is one of the few earth wires that is specifically drawn on the diagram!. So in practice there are dedicated black neutral/earth wires for everything and we often can't see whether any of these neutral wires are shared between (say) the parking light and the direction indicators.  However, in this case it does look as though the Black wire of contact 4 in the 4-way Amp connector near the instrument panel, takes a single neutral wire back, but it also earths all the instrument lights and speedo/rev counter lights as well as the headlights, so because you said the headlights work,  I think this precludes the fault being in this neutral wire back to the battery.

 So, I'm still of the opinion that for the clutch starter button to de energise contact 3, the Orange/blue wire that comes from the Ignition switch, that should be turned off when you switch off, but doesn't, then this wire must be being energised by either the Red/Black wire from the Lights mini-relay (that gets turned off when you press the starter with the clutch held in).  This is the only way that power via Fuse 5, which is directly connected to the battery, can keep the circuits that should be switched off, live, but get switched off by pressing the starter.

So, the fact that the parking and direction lights also don't work seems to me to indicate a wiring harness fault that has broken the common Yellow-red wire feeding fuses 6 & 7 but has also melted the insulation on the Red/Black wire and falsely connected it to the Orange/Blue wire.  I'd advise trying to confirm this by isolating the wires at the connectors they go to and testing for continuity or for short circuits.

I must admit i was hoping that with sufficient logic I could pinpoint the failure point more exactly, but given this other problem, I think the most likely cause is by a major harness failure, due to an overheated generator live or neutral wire.  Do check, clean and grease the 4-way connector near the regulator to avoid any future repairs going the same overheated way.

Repairing may be more complicated, but if you can isolate the ends of these wires, prove to yourself that these have failed open- and short-circuit as suggested, then, short of buying a new harness or stripping and repairing the old one, then it ought to be possible to isolate these wires and run a set of new ones to the various end point connectors, sleeve the wires together and tie it neatly with cable ties in parallel to the main harness.

Best of luck.

 

Given my experience of  

[JKV11]

19 hours ago, PeterT said:

The 10-way is strapped to the down-frame tube under the tank but near to the steering head bearing.  I think the 12-way is somewhere close, either to the 10-way or nearer to the instrument panel.  I can't be too certain as my V11 was modified by Ghezzi Brian and had a new dashboard and headlights but looking on the parts list diagram, there seem to be two large connectors (the 10 and presumably the 12) in similar positions which look like being near the steering head bearing

Your further diagnostic tests are very interesting particularly the fact that the parking and direction indicators are not working. 

Peter Thank you very much!!

When the ignition switch is on, everthing works fine!! But when i turn the igition switch off, the parking light and the direction indicators are switch off. Everything else still works like the iginiton switch is still on. 

By pulling te clutch en pushing the start buton or by pulling the clutch en shifting in gear (with de igition switch turned off) the electical circuit shuts down. Also bij pulling Relay #1, #2, #3 of Fuse 5.

I will take of the fuel tank this weekend and check the entire wire harnas and connectors.

Thank you all!!

[PeterT]

OK.  This I can understand.  Fuses 6 and 7 power the parking lights and direction indicators and are turned on by the ignition switch that feeds them from contact 2 on the ignition switch.  So, when you turn off the ignition switch, they should stop working.  What has confused us is that the rest keeps working.  But this is understandable because it is only the wiring from contact 3 of the ignition switch that is being kept on by the fault short-circuit between the Red/Black wire coming from the Lights mini-relay.  Since this is fed directly from the battery via Fuse 4, it doesn't go through the ignition switch, and so this fault can keep this circuit working until you pull in the clutch and press the starter.  At this point it de-energises the lights relay and interrupts this faulty supply.  So this is all consistent with there being a fault between the red/black wire from the lights relay and the Orange/blue wire from the ignition switch that goes to the starter and the Neutral Gear mini-relays as well as to the front dashboard 12-way Amp connector to power the neutral lamp.  So i really think we have it nailed.  Disconnect the ends of these wires at the relays, ignition switch, side-stand switch and 12-way connector.  Test between them to prove they are shorted. If they are then run new wires, sleeve them, replace the terminals and reconnect and tie them neatly in parallel with the harness to take their place.  Let me know how you get on.

[JKV11]

I took the tank from the V11 and there's is no sign of trouble, unfortunatly i can't start it whitout the gastank.

But when i disconnect the 12-way connector there's no dashboard light, but as far as i can tell everthing is the same. Also bij disconnecting the 10-way connector. when i disconnect the  5-way (the right controles) the ignition switch works again like it should.

I can follow you, with the black/red wire and it is consistand whith disconnecting the 5way connector. I can't follow why this wire or relay remains energized.

I try to follow you in you solution. With wire's i should disconnect en connect?

Kind regards