turn indicators aspire to 4way flashers

[Purloined]

I've been sorting out various issues with a 2000 V11 Sport that I've had for about 2 1/2 years.  A previous owner had replaced the OEM turn signals with a terrible set of LEDs. When I got the bike they flashed erratically and I replaced the relay with a proper LED unit and the flash rate returned to normal.  Now I'm replacing the insipid aftermarket LEDs with brighter units.  I began disassembling the old wiring and there are what appear to be resistors wired inline on the front turn signal wiring, one for each side. My guess is that these were installed in the day to provide a better flash rate when the LEDs were swapped, even though they flashed rapidly until I replaced the relay. Turn signals flash at a proper rate with the resistors removed.

However, without them, engaging either L/R circuit makes the unused flasher flash at a slightly diminished brightness, both front and rear. So 4way flashers without the resistors. Were resistors ever part of the turn signal assembly? They don't look OEM to me.  My guess is that somewhere in the labyrinth the L/R circuits are making contact. Maybe the resistors prevent the unintended signal from flashing. 

I could continue blithely and re-use the resistors, but the bike already has a battery drain somewhere and it doesn't seem wise to ignore this issue. Has anyone had this problem? Or point to a location on the bike/likely source of this problem? Switch? 

Plenty of walls already are beckoning my feeble head to bang against them. I figure I can either pad them, or aspire to life in one room; unsexy options. Any advice with the exception of handfuls of aspirin appreciated.  

[Lucky Phil]

Kiwiroy has posted some wiring diagrams and information here for this issue I think.

Ciao 

[footgoose]

inline resistors are not stock. Someone used them to set up their led's to work proper. I'm (was) going through the same. My parts bike came with a working 4 led turn set up and worked fine. Breaking the bike apart I wasn't paying attention to how he did it. It did not work on the bike I transferred it to. Going back through the parts bike wiring, I found a wire spliced off one signal wire and "possibly" spliced to the tach back light. Can't be sure. I'm leaving it alone for now (season) and am using led rear and some nice small incandescent for front. With the right flasher it works fine.

[Purloined]

The 'search' is an hours long journey down the rabbit hole, but after posting I came across thread about the instrument indicator being the culprit. The resistors in the loop eliminate the problem. Is there any reason not to re-integrate them

[footgoose]

yes Phil, it was I believe KiwiRoy saying to include a dash lite somehow in the circuit. He changed his dash bulbs tho... can't recall

[Purloined]

Link to the thread: 

I usually encounter the Donnie Darko rabbit or Brer rabbit in the rabbit hole as opposed to the more cuddly rabbit brother from my childhood; consequent aversion. 

[footgoose]

we'll get there

[Weegie]

I'll need to look at the circuit later but are you sure their resistors? They might be diodes, have they a silver stripe on one side alternatively resistors on their own might be enough to limit the current

Couple of things

First the dimm flashing on the opposite side sounds like either a poor earth on the side that's flashing so what's happening is the circuit is finding a way to earth through the other side. 

or

Their might be something wierd going on in the wiring circuit.

Anything done to the warning bulb on the dash? On the 1100 Sports and Daytonas Centauros Guzzi wired the turn signal warn bulb so that when one side was flashing the warning bulb earthed through the other side, this worked fine with a bulb but as an LED only worked in one direction would not work with an LED. The other side would light as well. I'm foggy on the exact reasoning as it's a while since I looked at it.

[MartyNZ]

12 hours ago, Purloined said:

engaging either L/R circuit makes the unused flasher flash at a slightly diminished brightness, both front and rear. So 4way flashers ... 

LED lamps draw much less current than incandescent bulbs. This is mostly a good thing, but there are 2 downsides. The original flasher unit blinks according to current draw, so it needs to be replaced. The pilot light on the instrument panel is now a significant current draw, and so the unselected side lamps get a ground connection through the pilot light. 

To get you flashers working properly you need to:

1. Change the flasher unit from a current driven type to an electronic flasher. That way you get a steady flasher rate.

2. Either fit a diode on either side of the pilot lamp, or fit a pair of green LED pilot lamps back to back in place of the incandescent bulb. 

[Weegie]

Think we are more or less saying the same thing Marty.

From Carl Allison's V11 wiring diagram it looks like the same setup as the Sportis and Daytona/Centauros.

 With the increased resistance of the LED indicator the Voltage will be held higher on the positive side of the selected indicator ciricuit. The voltage finds it more difficult to get to earth as the resistance has increased with the LEDs. The earth path for the whole circuit might then be (at least in part) through the turn warning bulb which is via the indicator circuit in the opposite side.

The opposite side from selected will then light dimly as enough current is flowing to partly light the bulbs or LEDs (it's all bit hit and miss as is the original circuit, start to change things and it can all go to pot).

The only thing I disagree on is installing a Diode either side of the warning bulb without doing anything else. Perhaps I'm missing something but how then does the warning bulb earth?

This is what I did when putting in an LED warning light and I'm pretty sure would work for the OPs situation as well.

Yes fit a diode on each of the lines going to the warning light, (the silver band will point towards the warning bulb connectror) then gang the LH & RH wires together after their respective diodes and connect them to one side of the warning light. On the other side install a direct connection to earth (or chassis if you're using the president's english)

Wait until Kiwi Roy wakes up to confirm/rubbish my suggestion, then we'll all be sure and you'll have the opinion of the best electrical guy on the forum 

[MartyNZ]

28 minutes ago, Weegie said:

The only thing I disagree on is installing a Diode either side of the warning bulb without doing anything else. Perhaps I'm missing something but how then does the warning bulb earth?

Oh, yes, you're right. It needs an added ground to work.

Here is a previous post about this:

https://www.v11lemans.com/forums/index.php?/topic/20690-led-blinkers-lr-blinking-at-the-same-time/&do=findComment&comment=238063

 

[Purloined]

As was pointed out, I don't know if the module that was integrated into the turn signal circuit was resistor or diode or something else. It is painted white on one end, wires toggle out of the other end with jumpers coming off (it is covered in shrink wrap). 

Retaining it in the circuit (there are identical modules for both the R/L turn signals) results in the turn signals flashing properly. Modifying the flash indicator in the instrument module in a circumscribed space sounds daunting. 

Is there a reason not to retain this setup after I replace the turn signal bulbs (LED > LED)?   

[Weegie]

They look like bloody great resistors to me.

Probably there to try to balance the load to (try) to keep the flash rate correct (as you already stated) and balance the circuit loads to keep the overall resistance (and thereby current flow) the same

I dislike resistors they waste power and just get hot.

However, that said, if they're already there and haven't melted anything, then I'd just keep them in. From the picture it looks reasonably neat so if it aint broke don't fix it.

I do apologize I need to read the first post more thoroughly in future I was under the (mistaken) impression you were wanting to ditch the resistors. Providing the new LEDs don't consume vastly more power, and I doubt they would, then it should all work just fine.

Should you want to junk them later then diodes are the way to go, tiny in comparison, no heat and more efficient. Wiring them into the turn signal warn light though is a faff (well it was on the Sporti and Daytona), so why give yourself the trouble

[Purloined]

Thanks, Weegie, very helpful.

The assembly was previously ty-wrapped behind the headlight bucket. With a jumper, I think I can incorporate everything inside the headlight shell, there's plenty of space. The blinkers are operational for brief periods, so I don't think too much heat and the LED headlight bulb does not give off much. 

I did replace the flasher relay with an electronic unit a when I first got the bike which solved the rapid flash problem. Don't know if the addition of the resistors by the PO was to curtail the 4-way flash affliction, but they were obviously okay with the rapid flashing which rendered them ineffectual.

I appreciate your time and patience in responding.