Starter Woes on New starter. Loud Buzzing Relay

[ColdandWet]

I definitely have a armadillo that wants to dance!!  I did use a wire to bridge the positive to the blade and worked like a charm with each little sparky tap the the body of the starter. 
 

I took the ground off the transmission bolt give it a good sanding cleaned everything up his dielectric grease on everything that was suggested here and in other posts thanks to all those that contributed. I’ll put my battery on the charger for a few hours until it doesn’t take a draw anymore anymore. This battery is YUASA it’s only about four years old but I only had a trickle charger on it for a year. That’s the next stop I’ll put everything back together and putting it up and give it a charge overnight. Will report back in the morning to see what happens.
 

I am wondering  a bit, maybe it’s possible, somewhere some how that wire from the relay to the blade got pinched. I’ll have to inspect again. 

[gstallons]

I hope you have tested the battery voltage and found it above 12.5 v and tested it during cranking . above 12.5v .  

You can test the starter on the bike by running a jumper lead from the spade terminal on the solenoid to the large terminal of the solenoid . If the battery and everything else is good , it should crank . If it does , your problem is in the bike's wiring. 

 P.S. hitting on a permanent magnet starter will give you bad results . The magnets will come loose or break . When you have more than two segments in the starter case , you have trouble .

[ColdandWet]

7 hours ago, gstallons said:

I hope you have tested the battery voltage and found it above 12.5 v and tested it during cranking . above 12.5v .  

You can test the starter on the bike by running a jumper lead from the spade terminal on the solenoid to the large terminal of the solenoid . If the battery and everything else is good , it should crank . If it does , your problem is in the bike's wiring. 

 P.S. hitting on a permanent magnet starter will give you bad results . The magnets will come loose or break . When you have more than two segments in the starter case , you have trouble .

It was my intention to do it when I woke up GStallions, low and behold it worked, roared to life! I was going to run a line from the battery but then the thought of take off the seat was just too much! Lol. So it turned, my bike is running and I can finally hear the new pipes roar. Now I just need to solve the problem my bike seems to have, I wonder if that line from the relay to the solenoid became compromised somehow. I’m gonna have to do a very close inspection and take a few things apart. Uuuuuugh! Thank you! 
 

Adding to this post, does that solenoid lead make its way directly to just one of the prongs on the Starter relay? My next step once I find a matching blade connector is to just replace it, and possible inspect the relay deck as well. 
 

just to be sure though, a 5 prong relay will still start the bike correct? That absent middle prong isn’t any use for the start sequence? 
 

  

[docc]

Rather than jack around with the wiring, begin by replacing your relays with 5-pin High Current OMRON. The 5-pin is only needed in the start position, but simple enough to use them in all positions.

[ColdandWet]

15 minutes ago, docc said:

Rather than jack around with the wiring, begin by replacing your relays with 5-pin High Current OMRON. The 5-pin is only needed in the start position, but simple enough to use them in all positions.

I have been doing some digging on past relay threads and you bet I am going to replace everything with Omron, I beleive you made a post I was digging into about the model number for the exact 5 pin 

 I’ll poke around online for some of those relays right now. Wondering if Amazon is a good bet. Of AF1 racing. MG cycle? Thanks Doc

[ColdandWet]

Doc, it appears the Omrons are obsolete or unavailable. I did see The Panasonic’s at DigiKey and also GEI at pyro Dan’s. I’ll continue some digging. 

[jtucker]

40 minutes ago, ColdandWet said:

Doc, it appears the Omrons are obsolete or unavailable. I did see The Panasonic’s at DigiKey and also GEI at pyro Dan’s. I’ll continue some digging. 

They are out-of-production currently, but are in-stock here:
https://www.onlinecomponents.com/omron-electronics/g8he1c7trdc12-42670683.html

(I just had a batch of them delivered to me yesterday)

__Jason

[ColdandWet]

11 minutes ago, jtucker said:

They are out-of-production currently, but are in-stock here:
https://www.onlinecomponents.com/omron-electronics/g8he1c7trdc12-42670683.html

(I just had a batch of them delivered to me yesterday)

__Jason

No sooner did I find them I came back here to report my findings and here you are. Thanks! Cause of the lack of picture I confirmed the ITN number and product number off an personal ad that was posted not long ago about Omron relays for sale.. The bag of relays had the website which I followed too.

time to order 10!  
 

Would like to get the bike running with any one of my current relays however hot wiring my bike will be good enough for the next day or to so I can head over to a friends and get a multi meter and some advice. 

[fotoguzzi]

Can also get good relays from DPGuzzi.com.  PYRO Dan

[ColdandWet]

On 9/8/2020 at 7:04 PM, Lucky Phil said:

Ok that is the neutral switch wire. My suggestion was simply a check. I dont even know what the effect would be if the neutral wire was hooked to the starter, probably nothing but its one of those things you just ensure is correct almost unconsciously when you have an issue.

The small blade connector on the starter is the power wire from the relay that operates a solenoid inside the starter to engage the main starter contactor.

Ciao    

“The small blade connector on the starter is the power wire from the relay that operates a solenoid inside the starter to engage the main starter contactor.‘’
 

I’m curious if you recall which particular prong that power comes from on the relay. I have Keewee Roy’s map of which prong roughly you use to troubleshoot a starter... but I’m not sure how I could use it to my benefit. If I could create a connection direct from the relay blade right to the blade on the solenoid I could rule out or not if that wire was damaged somehow.Thank you. 

[ColdandWet]

Looking deeper it seems I should be able to run lead right from the solenoid to number 87 on the relay if I can do that in some slick way at least that would rule out any bad connection on that lead at least which I suspect. If that doesn’t work I’m really lost at what to do next. We’ll find out tomorrow when I check the battery though. 

[ColdandWet]

While I was out today I just happen to see a Magnacharge was in my town I didn’t realize. Picked up a new PC 545 odyssey battery, playing a round of golf while they give the new battery a bit of a boost. Will report back.

[ColdandWet]

No luck. As it turned out my battery did need to be replaced. So, PC545 is all topped up and we still have no luck. I use two methods to start the bike, however I’ll start fresh with my situation. 
 

Ignition is armed, neutral light is on, kickstand sensor is disabled, when I clock the starter the lights dim slightly, and the relay clicks, I don’t hold it long cause I don’t want to blow that fuse. 
 

I have a new starter, brand new battery, I have brushed clean all the contacts from each ground wire to the batter including the earth wire to the back of the gearbox. Power wire is as clean as a whistle. Power very clearly does get to the starter cause I can hot wire the bike two superset ways which are still pretty much the same. One mentioned here by running a wire from the solenoid blade to the positive terminal on the starter, that works fantastic. Roars to life. 
 

the second I’ll quote from KiwiRoy 

 

Remove the start relay and poke a wire into 30 and 87 this should make the bike crank (so make sure it's in neutral or on the center stand) If it cranks this will eliminate the starter and solenoid from suspicion. This did not work or do anything g whatsoever however thinking about it now I did not have my clutch in at the time I might have to try that again to see if that was necessary to engage the clutch. 

Pin layout
  ----  30  
  ----  87
 |  |  | 85, 87a. 86

Later bikes power the 30 terminal through the ignition switch and fuse 4 (a mistake IMHO)
Try poking the wire into 87 then touch the other end onto battery Positive (+) terminal. This makes my bike ROAR TO GOOD LIFE  which I suspect confirms the quality of the connection from that lead that connects to 87 On the really to the solenoid blade is top notch. 
The 87 socket goes directly to the trigger terminal of the starter solenoid, check it's got a good connection down there.

i’ve swapped all of the relays around. I have new omrons on the way. I will say one thing after hotwiring my bike I noticed right after I shut it off I tried to start it back on again you could almost feel the starter trying to engage once or twice and then after a third click of the starter button it wouldn’t work. In fact after hotwiring a couple times after shutting it down I was able to start it up again right away but only once. I started it up again shut it down and I haven’t been able to replicate restarting it using the starter button but it does feel like.

 

I can imagine maybe one or two relays being trouble but all of them it’s very strange. Either way I’ll keep plugging away at it.

[docc]

Until you source the High Current relays, have you opened, inspected, cleaned, and serviced your Ignition Switch?

[jtucker]

1 hour ago, ColdandWet said:

Remove the start relay and poke a wire into 30 and 87 this should make the bike crank (so make sure it's in neutral or on the center stand) If it cranks this will eliminate the starter and solenoid from suspicion. This did not work or do anything g whatsoever however thinking about it now I did not have my clutch in at the time I might have to try that again to see if that was necessary to engage the clutch. 

I do believe that in this scenario, the clutch switch is necessary - so do try that.

If it still doesn't work, then I'm with docc in suspecting either the ignition (key) switch, or the wiring in between that and the pin 30 on the starter relay. Someone correct me if I'm wrong (my earlier bike is different) but I think there may be a splice somewhere off the ignition "on" circuit and the starter relay, as that circuit does more than simply power the starter relay. If so, that splice point could be faulty as well. There may even be more than one splice point... that path seems to take a meandering route.

__Jason