Starter Woes on New starter. Loud Buzzing Relay

[ColdandWet]

Hello, 

 

Operating a 2004 cafe sport, had a few starter issues so I decided to shell out a few bucks And pick up a new starter. I have been having starter issues on my bike for probably about two years, always fixed with a couple of taps with a piece of wood. Gradually requiring more often in a little bit firmer taps. Once the bike was warm I never needed to hit the starter again it was always good for the day typically the first one in the morning.

 

so I put the new starter in everything looks good put the earth wire back on the battery go to start the bike and all of a sudden there’s a loud buzzing from the starter relay. The buzz was never there before, there is current being drawn, the lights do go a bit dim, my neutral light is indeed on. I swapped out relays to no avail. (Can’t remember if the relay for the starter requires the 6 prong relay or 5. I only have 5 pronged a filling the other spots. 
 

My bike was purchased used has never had the kickstand switch, it was removed at some point not by me and it’s never given me any grief that I recall. Before I go and head up to Napa for a few more relays maybe if I should take off the tank and check the connecters on the left side of the frame. One of the things I did when I bought the bike was I remove the tank and I fitted better Japanese bullet connecters. 
 

After that if I have no luck, what is my next course of action? thanks folks! 

[ColdandWet]

Latest update still nothing working. I did some research and tried Keewee Roy’s method of bridging the starter relay prongs 87 and 30 together. No luck whatsoever. I then checked prong 87 and the battery terminal I definitely have a good trigger lots of Sparks.

I did find after close inspection some wires that were crudely lobbed off and taped together which appeared to be the origins of the kickstand switch I played around with a little bit they seem to be stuck together pretty well wound up and we’re previously covered and tape. 
 

I’m not sure where to inspect for the ground to the frame or maybe even my next step to take the tank off and do a closer inspection is there a possibility that my battery is not strong enough to make the start? It’s been on a trickle charger for some time and hasn’t giving me troubles before I’m just thinking out loud. I’m going to try removing the starter one more time inspecting it and attaching it.

[ColdandWet]

Ok took the tank off. (Time to do the tank off checklist?) 

all the connections appear sound. Maybe I need to do a little bit of sanding on the power wires in the grounds making a better connection? Mikko, Another poster here has advised to get the kit pictures here to help long term. https://www.gutsibits.co.uk/pr/TheShop/index.php?f=e&Cat=ACA&CatName=Accessories&Shnew=1&Model=0&spPage=14
 

I’m at a loss right now on what to do next.

[Lucky Phil]

Have you removed the starter and tried 12 volts to it directly to see if the new starter is working?That would be the first thing I would do. Just because it's new doesn't mean it isn't faulty.

Ciao

[ColdandWet]

Great point do you suggest maybe I could use my car battery any reason why that wouldn’t work? I’m not exactly the most savvy but I can’t handle a few things.

Should I be able to just take jumper cables from my Volkswagen negative and positive right to the terminals on the starter and the side post on the starter? Thanks Lucky. 

[docc]

12 minutes ago, ColdandWet said:

Great point do you suggest maybe I could use my car battery any reason why that wouldn’t work? I’m not exactly the most savvy but I can’t handle a few things.

Should I be able to just take jumper cables from my Volkswagen negative and positive right to the terminals on the starter and the side post on the starter? Thanks Lucky. 

Clamp the battery positive to the big post on the starter lying on the floor. Put your foot on the starter and take the negative from your car to the housing of the starter where you would bolt it up. It should just jump into action like a startled armadillo!

[Lucky Phil]

1 minute ago, docc said:

Clamp the battery positive to the big post on the starter lying on the floor. Put your foot on the starter and take the negative from your car to the housing of the starter where you would bolt it up. it just jump into action like a startled armadillo!

You'll need voltage onto the blade connector as well docc.

Ciao

[Lucky Phil]

Here's a silly question just off the top of my head in case you have had other stuff apart as well as the starter. You don't have the neutral switch wire connected to the starter connector do you?

Ciao

[ColdandWet]

16 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

You'll need voltage onto the blade connector as well docc.

Ciao

What exactly does that side blade connector do/go to? Thanks. 
 

I’m not exactly sure where the neutral switch wire may be. I took the starter off yesterday and dismantled it and inspected for my own curiosity and I put the large power wire and the blade connecter back on the blade as it had appeared before.

Although now I am curious beneath the starter there is a lead almost that looks like a spark plug what is that wire and what is that spark plug looking thing going into the gearbox by the looks of it?

 

[Lucky Phil]

7 minutes ago, ColdandWet said:

What exactly does that side blade connector do/go to? Thanks. 
 

I’m not exactly sure where the neutral switch wire may be. I took the starter off yesterday and dismantled it and inspected for my own curiosity and I put the large power wire and the blade connecter back on the blade as it had appeared before.

Although now I am curious beneath the starter there is a lead almost that looks like a spark plug what is that wire and what is that spark plug looking thing going into the gearbox by the looks of it?

 

Ok that is the neutral switch wire. My suggestion was simply a check. I dont even know what the effect would be if the neutral wire was hooked to the starter, probably nothing but its one of those things you just ensure is correct almost unconsciously when you have an issue.

The small blade connector on the starter is the power wire from the relay that operates a solenoid inside the starter to engage the main starter contactor.

Ciao    

[ColdandWet]

13 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

Ok that is the neutral switch wire. My suggestion was simply a check. I dont even know what the effect would be if the neutral wire was hooked to the starter, probably nothing but its one of those things you just ensure is correct almost unconsciously when you have an issue.

The small blade connector on the starter is the power wire from the relay that operates a solenoid inside the starter to engage the main starter contactor.

Ciao    

Just getting ready to put  the boy to bed shortly so after I’m going to try the power the whole thing up from my VW to see what happens here. Thanks Docc. It should still spin without the solenoid powered I suspect tho eh, just won’t push out that gear. 
 

When I spin the gear on the starter motor itself it doesn’t exactly spin as freely as my previous Valeo starter. Just something to note. Clean as a whistle though. 
 

I did a very close inspection just now of that neutral wire, could use a bit of a cleaning both otherwise in good shape. If after all this doesnt work (after Independently test the starter)I’ll start to really dig in and maybe wire brush the connectors on each end of the power wire, locate the ground to tie frame.......

I ran the bike two weeks ago and it did have a very difficult time getting the starter to engage. Typically a couple taps were needed but this time was quite a lot of effort. If I recall even it was bad before then. Just been a quiet year on the bike is all. 

[ColdandWet]

One last quick thought even though I fiddled around and swapped all the relays, and even though front starter relay seemed to operate other spots where I had replaced it I wonder if I should just get a new 6 pronger. 

[footgoose]

1 hour ago, docc said:

jump into action like a startled armadillo!

or ...

"Docc is about 170 soaking wet"

 

I'm not sure which quote wins the day  

[footgoose]

4 hours ago, ColdandWet said:

I’m not sure where to inspect for the ground to the frame

the ground often 'suspect' seems to be at the upper right bolt at the back of the transmission. Pull the bolt and clean all surfaces. Replace with DeOxit or something equiv.

Your bike's only 16 years old but as a vintage bike enthusiast I can tell you, moisture and corrosion will take a toll. I won't babble on about things I've seen but will suggest to you to start with the basics. Positively fresh and clean the fuel system (all of it), grounds and connectors refreshed, and have no doubts about your intake rubbers, including balance nipple hose or caps. If unsure about the battery have it checked out or get a new one. Many/most of us use an Odyssey pc545.

 

[docc]

1 hour ago, ColdandWet said:

Just getting ready to put  the boy to bed shortly so after I’m going to try the power the whole thing up from my VW to see what happens here. Thanks Docc. It should still spin without the solenoid powered I suspect tho eh, just won’t push out that gear. 
 

When I spin the gear on the starter motor itself it doesn’t exactly spin as freely as my previous Valeo starter. Just something to note. Clean as a whistle though. 
 

I did a very close inspection just now of that neutral wire, could use a bit of a cleaning both otherwise in good shape. If after all this doesnt work (after Independently test the starter)I’ll start to really dig in and maybe wire brush the connectors on each end of the power wire, locate the ground to tie frame.......

I ran the bike two weeks ago and it did have a very difficult time getting the starter to engage. Typically a couple taps were needed but this time was quite a lot of effort. If I recall even it was bad before then. Just been a quiet year on the bike is all. 

 

2 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

You'll need voltage onto the blade connector as well docc.

Ciao

What Lucky Phil says, there. Power to the starter post, ground to the case flange where you bolt the starter up, and use a screwdriver to jump across the positive to the blade connector on the solenoid. The gear should jump out and spin robustly.

Re-reading makes me more suspicious of a flat battery. You have a good voltmeter to check it after it has been quiet (no load, no charger) after a few hours?