For the experts: best sender locations for oil temp and pressure

[po18guy]

"If' I was to install an oil temp and oil pressure gauge on my V11, are there locations which would be preferable both mechanically and logistically?

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, po18guy said:

"If' I was to install an oil temp and oil pressure gauge on my V11, are there locations which would be preferable both mechanically and logistically?

Yes the best locations for those by far is on the bench in the workshop as testing equipment only.

Ciao   

[jtucker]

This would potentially solve one of those issues:

https://www.mgcycle.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=281&products_id=1937

No first-hand experience with it... although I have considered it.

__Jason

[po18guy]

1 hour ago, Lucky Phil said:

Yes the best locations for those by far is on the bench in the workshop as testing equipment only.

Ciao   

Well, I wanted a leak that I could not blame on Guzzi.

[pete roper]

I have one of those oil temperature dipsticks on my Griso. It was an interesting tool for teaching me exactly how cool the 8V motor generally runs but apart from that it's pretty useless. In reality it's just a bit of bling. As for the V11? Unless there is something grotesquely wrong with it it's never likely to seriously overheat.

With regard to a pressure gauge  it's easy enough to mount one using a splitter that can be screwed into the original hole the pressure switch goes into. Using a splitter allows you to keep the original light which is a good thing as its far more likely to be noticed than a gauge. Having said that, I'm with Phil. Chances are if you fit a gauge all it will do is frighten you! Idle pressure on a hot engine is pathetically low! The switch at least only illuminates the light at something pathetic like 5PSI but at idle, when hot, the pressure probably won't be much above that!

I had both a pressure and temperature gauge on my old SP 1000 simply because it came with them and I fitted a pressure gauge to my little hot-rod I built back in the nineties to try and identify why it kept torching it's big ends! The answer turned out to be that at a certain point close to 10,000 rpm indicated, (By the Vague-Liar tacho, nothing more sophisticated.) the oil pump would cavitate and pressure would drop to almost zero! Not really surprising it had an appetite for big ends! That engine had a 70mm crank with 4mm overlength Carillo rods, specially made forged pistons to get the CR where I wanted it, a stupid cam, Ti pushrods and a whole host of other crap. 40mm Carbs, a lightweight clutch assembly and worked through a low ratio, straight cut ZD gearbox and 7/33 final drive. When I'd got it as right as I could it made 84 rear wheel HP out of 891cc @ 9,800 rpm! And while I think the Dyno was a bit optimistic I reckoned that was pretty good for a 10,000 rpm ditchpump!

The thing was after all that time, effort and money I picked up a bone stock, low mileage SP1000 and it was an infinitely more enjoyable bike to ride!😂 I eventually squarefined the motor for a bit more capacity but it was never as much fun as it was as an 891.

Shortly after I finished it's squarefin transformation I bought one of the first Griso 1100's to come into Australia. It did everything the hot rod did only better and more reliably and had the benefits of modern suspension, chassis and brakes. Two years after that I bought my current 8V Griso, wrecked out the hot rod and the rest is history, I became an Eight Valve Evangelist and while that engine may of suffered from the flat tappet fiasco its never had any oil pressure, or temperature, problems!😝

[Lucky Phil]

58 minutes ago, pete roper said:

I have one of those oil temperature dipsticks on my Griso. It was an interesting tool for teaching me exactly how cool the 8V motor generally runs but apart from that it's pretty useless. In reality it's just a bit of bling. As for the V11? Unless there is something grotesquely wrong with it it's never likely to seriously overheat.

With regard to a pressure gauge  it's easy enough to mount one using a splitter that can be screwed into the original hole the pressure switch goes into. Using a splitter allows you to keep the original light which is a good thing as its far more likely to be noticed than a gauge. Having said that, I'm with Phil. Chances are if you fit a gauge all it will do is frighten you! Idle pressure on a hot engine is pathetically low! The switch at least only illuminates the light at something pathetic like 5PSI but at idle, when hot, the pressure probably won't be much above that!

I had both a pressure and temperature gauge on my old SP 1000 simply because it came with them and I fitted a pressure gauge to my little hot-rod I built back in the nineties to try and identify why it kept torching it's big ends! The answer turned out to be that at a certain point close to 10,000 rpm indicated, (By the Vague-Liar tacho, nothing more sophisticated.) the oil pump would cavitate and pressure would drop to almost zero! Not really surprising it had an appetite for big ends! That engine had a 70mm crank with 4mm overlength Carillo rods, specially made forged pistons to get the CR where I wanted it, a stupid cam, Ti pushrods and a whole host of other crap. 40mm Carbs, a lightweight clutch assembly and worked through a low ratio, straight cut ZD gearbox and 7/33 final drive. When I'd got it as right as I could it made 84 rear wheel HP out of 891cc @ 9,800 rpm! And while I think the Dyno was a bit optimistic I reckoned that was pretty good for a 10,000 rpm ditchpump!

The thing was after all that time, effort and money I picked up a bone stock, low mileage SP1000 and it was an infinitely more enjoyable bike to ride!😂 I eventually squarefined the motor for a bit more capacity but it was never as much fun as it was as an 891.

Shortly after I finished it's squarefin transformation I bought one of the first Griso 1100's to come into Australia. It did everything the hot rod did only better and more reliably and had the benefits of modern suspension, chassis and brakes. Two years after that I bought my current 8V Griso, wrecked out the hot rod and the rest is history, I became an Eight Valve Evangelist and while that engine may of suffered from the flat tappet fiasco its never had any oil pressure, or temperature, problems!😝

Yes Pete, doing some research and looking at the Griso engine via the dealer tech training notes and the shop and parts manual I quite like the engine. About the only thing thats a step backward for techies like me is the crank end float bearing that's part of the case. Should never be an issue for a decently maintained engine but I do like replaceable bearings where possible. I would have also liked the head oil feeds to be more internal organised and not rely so much on external piping from the cooler but its not a biggie. 

All in all they seem quite well designed things and don't look too bad aesthetics wise. If I was building a "special" it's the engine I'd use.

Ciao

[po18guy]

Thanks, guys, you have saved me a lot of work. Too much aircraft thought, I guess.  But even in a plane, what to do at 5,000 feet should the gauges zero out? The same thing as normally - look for a landing strip.

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, po18guy said:

Thanks, guys, you have saved me a lot of work. Too much aircraft thought, I guess.  But even in a plane, what to do at 5,000 feet should the gauges zero out? The same thing as normally - look for a landing strip.

Well in the commercial jet world generally speaking you don't do anything on the strength of 1 parameter failure. You look at the other parameters and if they are all normal you continue. I once had a pilot call me looking to divert to a small alternate strip because of a fuel filter clogging light on. I asked him about the other parameters, any fluctuations etc? No. I mentioned to him that these switches were prone to failure and that by the time he diverted to the small alternate remote strip with no support of any kind he'd only be 10 min from his major scheduled destination strip anyway, but it was his decision. He went for the alternate, sigh, and it took us half a day to get him out of there. You can lead a horse as they say.

Ciao  

[pete roper]

2 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

Yes Pete, doing some research and looking at the Griso engine via the dealer tech training notes and the shop and parts manual I quite like the engine. About the only thing thats a step backward for techies like me is the crank end float bearing that's part of the case. Should never be an issue for a decently maintained engine but I do like replaceable bearings where possible. I would have also liked the head oil feeds to be more internal organised and not rely so much on external piping from the cooler but its not a biggie. 

All in all they seem quite well designed things and don't look too bad aesthetics wise. If I was building a "special" it's the engine I'd use.

Ciao

Phil, the oil feeds to the camboxes are internal. The lubrication circuit is all internal, it’s only the cooling circuit that travels through the hoses. The cam feeds are up the front inner and rear outer studs.

[Lucky Phil]

44 minutes ago, pete roper said:

Phil, the oil feeds to the camboxes are internal. The lubrication circuit is all internal, it’s only the cooling circuit that travels through the hoses. The cam feeds are up the front inner and rear outer studs.

Oh Ok Pete, looking at the colour representation of the oil system I see the pressure side still goes around the front jackshaft bearing and I assumed it only went there to transfer to the aft jackshaft bearing. I can see now and you stirred my memory that the feeds from the cooler are dedicated cooling circuits.

I was taking an interest because I want to convert a Daytona engine I'm building to the MGS-01 system that eliminates the jackshaft by using a 25x12x47mm ball bearing where the front cam bearing used to be. The MGS though feeds the heads from the oil cooler and I'd prefer the head feeds were internal as std. You might know Pete is the front bearing now used in the Griso to support the jackshaft at the front a ZZ or double sealed grease filled bearing? I can see it has a seal on the forward side but I have no view of the side that's inside the case.If you use a ball bearing here with the internal oil feed gallery you need to machine an oil feed groove in the case around the bearing OD. Its either that or run a needle bearing there with a steel bush and machine the oil feed groove in that.

So do you know if the front jackshaft bearing in the 1200 engine is the double sealed ball or just a single seal? I'm guessing its a double sealed unit?

 

Ciao    

[pete roper]

It's a 2RS bearing.

I think I've got a pic of the lubrication system layout on the 8V.

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49417221471_3d5c8344ac_z.jpg[/img]

This is the front, (And rear next to it.) main bearing. While I too hate the supposedly non replaceable front main I'm pretty sure I could sort out a way of fitting the earlier main and allowing the cooler delivery to the under piston sprays.

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49417221476_65ebf9c3e5_z.jpg[/img]

You can see the gallery for the oil sprays machined into the case. The bearing is then presumably shrunk in afterwards.

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49416747388_9073576ce6_z.jpg[/img]

The case is cross drilled for the spray feeds.

[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49417221396_e1f0e64c3a_z.jpg[/img]

The jack shaft is now withdrawn from the back unlike the earlier motors and the rear end spins in a needle roller in the cap that bolts to the rear of the case. It is sealed with an o-ring.

[pete roper]

Sorry, for some reason the pics aren't showin?

[docc]

4 hours ago, pete roper said:

Sorry, for some reason the pics aren't showin?

Yeah, for some unknown reason, the usual method of posting images ("BB Code") which Pete used correctly above is not being recognized by the new forum software. You can post your images direct using just the address beginning with "http", AFAIK. Here are the images I searched individually and posted "Copy Image location." The first two look identical to me.

 

[docc]

4 hours ago, pete roper said:

It's a 2RS bearing.

I think I've got a pic of the lubrication system layout on the 8V.

This is the front, (And rear next to it.) main bearing. While I too hate the supposedly non replaceable front main I'm pretty sure I could sort out a way of fitting the earlier main and allowing the cooler delivery to the under piston sprays.

You can see the gallery for the oil sprays machined into the case. The bearing is then presumably shrunk in afterwards.

The case is cross drilled for the spray feeds.

The jack shaft is now withdrawn from the back unlike the earlier motors and the rear end spins in a needle roller in the cap that bolts to the rear of the case. It is sealed with an o-ring.

Pete's post with the images inserted.

[pete roper]

OK, yes and somehow I didn't get the pic of the bearings right. Let's see if I can get it right now...

https://flic.kr/p/2ihMKkp" title=" by -convertpervert-"><img src="https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49416747353_14de7935b2_z.jpg" width="480" height="640" alt=""></a>