Musical Relays

[LowRyter]

My Greenie has a starting issue that I believe is relay related.  The issue never seems to be the same relay or the same problem.  This usually occurs after I've been riding and stop for gas or a visit.  Sometimes it's the fuel pump, sometimes it's either plugs or FI.  On occasion it won't turn over which could be beyond the relay issue (like neutral switch).  But I can usually get it running when I move the relays around and push on the sensors.  They are Omicron  relays and I use simple contact cleaner regularly. 

1.  The relays are hot to the touch.  Is this normal or is there voltage reg issue?  Perhaps I'm just cooling off the relays when I remove them?  OTOH the bike never dies once it's going, only after I've ridden and stop.  

2.  If it's mater of contacts, I suppose I should get that expensive deox stuff?

[daviscr5]

Interesting. I've had the same issue with my V11 Coppa when warmed up.  Then again, sometimes I have starting issues at cold start-up.  I turn the key, depress the starter and nothing.  I repeat a few times, then it eventually starts perfectly.  I also had this issue after re-fueling and had to pull away from the island, remove the seat, jimmy the relays around, then it started right up.  My issue is intermittent but similar.  I've never noticed them begin warm, but then again I've never thought about it.  I also believe my relays are original, or at least I've never replaced them.

[docc]

7 hours ago, LowRyter said:

My Greenie has a starting issue that I believe is relay related.  The issue never seems to be the same relay or the same problem.  This usually occurs after I've been riding and stop for gas or a visit.  Sometimes it's the fuel pump, sometimes it's either plugs or FI.  On occasion it won't turn over which could be beyond the relay issue (like neutral switch).  But I can usually get it running when I move the relays around and push on the sensors.  They are Omicron  relays and I use simple contact cleaner regularly. 

1.  The relays are hot to the touch.  Is this normal or is there voltage reg issue?  Perhaps I'm just cooling off the relays when I remove them?  OTOH the bike never dies once it's going, only after I've ridden and stop.  

2.  If it's mater of contacts, I suppose I should get that expensive deox stuff?

Actual OMRON G8HE in all positions?

Yeah, the Caig DeOxit really is awesome contact/switch cleaner-lubricant-treatment-sealant. maybe that is just the "Gold" product, but it is definitely worth it.

[docc]

1 hour ago, daviscr5 said:

Interesting. I've had the same issue with my V11 Coppa when warmed up.  Then again, sometimes I have starting issues at cold start-up.  I turn the key, depress the starter and nothing.  I repeat a few times, then it eventually starts perfectly.  I also had this issue after re-fueling and had to pull away from the island, remove the seat, jimmy the relays around, then it started right up.  My issue is intermittent but similar.  I've never noticed them begin warm, but then again I've never thought about it.  I also believe my relays are original, or at least I've never replaced them.

Press to start and "nothing" can simply be the Clutch Safety Switch "bullet" connectors under the left side of the tank. They are notorious for locking out the start function.  Sometimes, this can be confirmed by holding in the clutch lever while keeping the start button pressed and rotating the bars back and forth. If the starter suddenly catches, it is likely a bad connection at those flinky bullet connectors.

[Kiwi_Roy]

You need to install a Go-Winkie light, it will tell you you have a fault and as you go through the sensors it will tell you when you touch the bad connection.

 

Hot is a broad  term, too hot to touch?

[LowRyter]

Not too hot to touch but hot enough.

I also have the problem on cold start ups too.  But lately it's been it's been warm start ups.  Typically I move a few relays and rub on the neutral sensor. 

If heat isn't the issue, I'll get the deox.  I guess I would do that anyway. 

[Tom in Virginia]

Have same starting issue on 2002 LM, like new condition with 3000 miles now.  This bike consistently blows fuse #5, thereby loosing lights, tach, etc.  Surely a factory "installed" problem. lol.  However, on the 2003 LM never have had any problems in 25K miles.  Starts every time and never has burned any fuses.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Tom in Virginia
editorial

[docc]

On 11/6/2020 at 6:52 AM, Tom in Virginia said:

Have same starting issue on 2002 LM, like new condition with 3000 miles now.  This bike consistently blows fuse #5, thereby loosing lights, tach, etc.  Surely a factory "installed" problem. lol.  However, on the 2003 LM never have had any problems in 25K miles.  Starts every time and never has burned any fuses.

I would suggest opening the headlamp bucket and inspecting the 3-way H4 bub connector for heat damage.  I have also seen a damaged H4 bulb filament cause a short. Faulty Relay#2, or its connections underneath, is also worth checking.

[Kiwi_Roy]

12 hours ago, Tom in Virginia said:

Have same starting issue on 2002 LM, like new condition with 3000 miles now.  This bike consistently blows fuse #5, thereby loosing lights, tach, etc.  Surely a factory "installed" problem. lol.  However, on the 2003 LM never have had any problems in 25K miles.  Starts every time and never has burned any fuses.

Fuse No 5 on the earlier VII should be a 20 Amp, not a 15. These earlier bikes are better wired in some ways, Fuse 5 is direct from the battery and feeds the Start relay, you should never have a problem with it failing to crank (provided it hasn't blown the fuse). The later bikes late 2003/2004 have the start relay fed from a switched fuse so they suffer from "Startus Interuptus" like many other models, how do I know this, because my 2001 was wired direct. I couldn't understand what SI was about until one day I discovered there are two coils in the solenoid, the solenoid has an inrush current around 40 Amps (too much for a 15 Amp fuse).

Trace the wiring to and from Fuse 5

It comes straight from the battery, goes to the Start relay through the normally closed contact to the headlight relay.

Compare it to a later model.

Here the start relay is fed from fuse 4 via the ignition switch, a 15 Amp fuse will probably never blow because it has half a mile of tiny wire to limit the current and the ability of the solenoid to engage the starter properly. You cannot simply feed the start relay direct or it will turn the headlight on, there's several ways around that.

[docc]

Nicely put, Kiwi_Roy!

So (on the early wiring), blowing Fuse5 during a start attempt could be connections to the Starter Solenoid or faulty starter (like the common internal loose magnets)?

If it blows turning the key on (Start Relay normally closed), the fault is in the Headlight Relay circuit?

[Kiwi_Roy]

From my notes, there are two coils in the Valeo solenoid (the old Bosch and the new Chinese starters all have 2 coils as well)

One is 1.05 Ohms from the spade connector to chassis by Ohms law that will draw 12/1.05 = 11.4 Amps, this coil is powered up as long as the bike is cranking over. (I call this the Holding Coil, it can never close the solenoid just strong enough to hold it in place)

The other coil is only 0.25 Ohms and goes from the spade connector to downstream of the main contact and across the armature. (I call this the Grunt Coil, it does most of the hard work if its wired right that is) The Grunt coil is turned off once the solenoid is engaged.

The armature is so close to zero ohms you can ignore that so by Ohms law 12/0.25 = 48 Amps, add the 11.4 and you have 59.4 Amps, in reality you get about 40 Amps. On the later bikes you get Startus Interuptus, the wiring is not up to it so the Voltage drops and the relay just clicks.

Solenoid Magnetic Strength: The two coils both have about 300 turns, the magnetic strength is Amps x Turns = 3,420 AT for the first coil, 14,400 AT for the second coil (4 x as strong if its wired right)

BTW if you try to measure the currents you cannot do it with a multimeter, the heavy current only lasts for about 50 milliseconds, too quick for a digital multimeter, there are ways of doing it if anyones interested.

I have helped dozens of owners with Startus Interuptus, some other models suffer worse e.g. the CARC models that the wire from the relay to the solenoid is really tiny, it would be ok if the current was only ~10 Amps but its a real choke point for 40 Amps, my 07 Griso operated 3 x as fast just by increasing the wire to a No 18. Of course on the later 8 Valve bikes the wiring is even worse, they choked the current through the switch again.

I wrote a letter to Piaggio about the problem, they sent me an acknowledgement but I suspect they filed it in the trash.

 

 

 

 

[docc]

I also seem to recall that the 2002 got the later wiring. Relay #1 "Livin' Easy" through the NC contact (?)

 

[Kiwi_Roy]

9 hours ago, docc said:

Nicely put, Kiwi_Roy!

So (on the early wiring), blowing Fuse5 during a start attempt could be connections to the Starter Solenoid or faulty starter (like the common internal loose magnets)?

If it blows turning the key on (Start Relay normally closed), the fault is in the Headlight Relay circuit?

That sounds right the headlight relay would close but I don't see how loose magnets would blow a fuse. A loose main battery connection could cause the fuse to blow, the heavy current coil is turned On until the contact closes feeding 12 Volts to the motor armature, I tested that by loosening the positive feed to the solenoid, the fuse blew in less than a second.

[Tom in Virginia]

14 hours ago, docc said:

I would suggest opening the headlamp bucket and inspecting the 3-way H4 bub connector for heat damage.  I have also seen a damged H4 bulb filament cause a short. Faulty Relay#2, or its connections underneath, is also worth checking.

Will do this over winter.  Fairly easy to check.  Thanks docc!

Kiwi-Roy:

"I have helped dozens of owners with Startus Interuptus, some other models suffer worse e.g. the CARC models that the wire from the relay to the solenoid is really tiny, it would be ok if the current was only ~10 Amps but its a real choke point for 40 Amps, my 07 Griso operated 3 x as fast just by increasing the wire to a No 18. Of course on the later 8 Valve bikes the wiring is even worse, they choked the current through the switch again."

Thanks Roy, I will have to look at this condition on my 2016 Norge.  It "cranks" with a good battery no problem but just doesn't seem to have much "umphh".  

Ahh, the life of owning Moto Guzzi's ... the work list is rapidly outnumbering the Honey-Do list! 

[gstallons]

I did this as a preventative measure some time ago. I installed a larger relay into the circuit going to the starter solenoid .  This remove the load from the factory wiring harness , fuses or relays . The original wire to the starter solenoid activates the relay with the relay controlling the starter solenoid .  Pin 85 to ground , pin 30 to 12v , pin 86 to factory solenoid wire and pin 87 to the starter solenoid .

 I have done this on my 03 and I have done this on Ford farm tractors with Lucas starters . Any time you can make a Lucas anything work better...........