Formotion clock fit

[p6x]

13 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

Note the spring washer performance.

Ciao

Interesting. Nord-Lock made a video that compares various anti-turn locking solution against their own design. Are they really objective? are those results shown telling the truth?

I cannot tell.

I can only say, that we installed lock washers of the Grower type on the road wheels, support wheels,  drive sprocket, tension drive. Then we drove the tanks in terrain to test components. Sometimes we sent vehicles to be tested by the military for different environments.

If anything, the bolts were more difficult to remove after the trials. And we also received field used battle tanks for upgrading. I did not once come across a loosened fastener.

However, there is a small difference with the video shown above.

We did not have nuts on our bolts. The bolts were screwed directly into threaded holes in the chassis, and the Grower washers on top of flat washers would be situated underneath the heads. The threaded part of the bolt is much longer than that of a nut.

As far as vibrations though, if you have been in a continuous track battle tank before, in terrain or on asphalt, vibrations are constant.

Conclusion: I would probably agree that a Grower washer underneath a nut is not very effective.

When we had nuts to secure, we would have a hole drilled through the nut and the bolt, and a spring pin would be inserted and lock secure the nut onto the bolt.

Those pins we called Mecanindus Pin. And the company still exists!

http://www.mecanindus.fr/en/

 

 

[Lucky Phil]

7 hours ago, p6x said:

Interesting. Nord-Lock made a video that compares various anti-turn locking solution against their own design. Are they really objective? are those results shown telling the truth?

I cannot tell.

I can only say, that we installed lock washers of the Grower type on the road wheels, support wheels,  drive sprocket, tension drive. Then we drove the tanks in terrain to test components. Sometimes we sent vehicles to be tested by the military for different environments.

If anything, the bolts were more difficult to remove after the trials. And we also received field used battle tanks for upgrading. I did not once come across a loosened fastener.

However, there is a small difference with the video shown above.

We did not have nuts on our bolts. The bolts were screwed directly into threaded holes in the chassis, and the Grower washers on top of flat washers would be situated underneath the heads. The threaded part of the bolt is much longer than that of a nut.

As far as vibrations though, if you have been in a continuous track battle tank before, in terrain or on asphalt, vibrations are constant.

Conclusion: I would probably agree that a Grower washer underneath a nut is not very effective.

When we had nuts to secure, we would have a hole drilled through the nut and the bolt, and a spring pin would be inserted and lock secure the nut onto the bolt.

Those pins we called Mecanindus Pin. And the company still exists!

http://www.mecanindus.fr/en/

 

 

Well I understand your suspicions living is the USA but the Europeans can't get away with Bullshitting the facts as they have extremely strict independent accreditation criteria's such as the TUV, and have had for decades. Nord lock are TUV certified.

As I've mentioned before I've never seen a spring washer used in aviation in 40 something years and have considered them to be "lawnmower technology" for pretty much all of that time. I'm just posting to make people aware/re aware of technology and engineering that's available out there they might not otherwise know about or have forgotten.

Ciao        

[docc]

Thanks so much for sharing and posting everyone's extensive experience. As a hairy-arsed, knuckle-dragger "Lawnmower Grade Technician", me-own-self, I struggle with the terminology and application.  

I see reference to "split lock washer" . . . (aka "Grower" washer?)

 

Grower Twin-Lock/ WedgeLock" washer" . . .

"Spring washer" . . .

The ubiquitous "Schnorr washer" found throughout the V11 ("conical spring washer?")

Seems that "Spring washer" encompasses many styles . . .

 

[Lucky Phil]

14 minutes ago, docc said:

Thanks so much for sharing and posting everyone's extensive experience. As a hairy-arsed, knuckle-dragger "Lawnmower Grade Technician", me-own-self, I struggle with the terminology and application.  

I see reference to "split lock washer" . . . (aka "Grower" washer?)

 

Grower Twin-Lock/ WedgeLock" washer" . . .

"Spring washer" . . .

The ubiquitous "Schnorr washer" found throughout the V11 ("conical spring washer?")

Seems that "Spring washer" encompasses many styles . . .

 

Yes docc I think the naming gets cross applied over the years. I think some of these serrated/spring locking devices have a use in locations where you cant apply any real torque to the fastener such as holding plastic components together with a bolt/screw where you cant get stretch on the fastener to keep it tight. They'd be good on nylon bolts and screw I suppose holding plastic pieces together.

Ciao   

[docc]

I realize we are drifting the "Formotion clock fit " thread, but the OP is @Lucky Phil , so if he wants to talk fasteners and washers . . . .

On my V11, I especially remember the Schnorr washer on the front caliper mounting bolts. I saw they are serrated, but never realized they are "conical/spring." I bet they have rather lost their *spring* after twenty-five front tire changes. I certainly do not want those fasteners coming loose.

Past their "use-by date?"

[Lucky Phil]

Ha, forgot I started this thread:)

Ciao

[docc]

[footgoose]

the only thing negative re thread/topic drift is when it drift's into something useful, such as this just has, and then can't be found later. We have discussed locking washers before "somewhere" on the forum .... after which I stocked up on several sizes of Schnorr washers for the Guzzi.

I've never had a locking washer of any kind ever allow a nut or bolt to undo itself. But I don't build aircraft. One thing I don't understand is the idea of using a lock washer paired with a flat washer. It makes for a clean job, but seems to defeat the purpose.

 

[Lucky Phil]

2 hours ago, footgoose said:

the only thing negative re thread/topic drift is when it drift's into something useful, such as this just has, and then can't be found later. We have discussed locking washers before "somewhere" on the forum .... after which I stocked up on several sizes of Schnorr washers for the Guzzi.

I've never had a locking washer of any kind ever allow a nut or bolt to undo itself. But I don't build aircraft. One thing I don't understand is the idea of using a lock washer paired with a flat washer. It makes for a clean job, but seems to defeat the purpose.

 

From now on every thread should have a lock washer reference so you can always find it:)

Not everything is done with regards to common sense and correct application, even sometimes by the designer. The hours I've whiled away trying to figure out why the designer/engineer has approached it "that way" when it was bound to fail and given up and just applied good engineering principles and fixed it.

Ciao 

[p6x]

On 8/9/2021 at 6:21 PM, Lucky Phil said:

Well I understand your suspicions living is the USA but the Europeans can't get away with Bullshitting the facts as they have extremely strict independent accreditation criteria's such as the TUV, and have had for decades. Nord lock are TUV certified.

As I've mentioned before I've never seen a spring washer used in aviation in 40 something years and have considered them to be "lawnmower technology" for pretty much all of that time. I'm just posting to make people aware/re aware of technology and engineering that's available out there they might not otherwise know about or have forgotten.

Ciao        

I really don't think Europeans "bullshit" the facts.

Actually, even if I was in the "lawnmower" industry, what we used to follow were established standards.

To be even considered to bid for jobs, we had to prove that we followed all the industry practices.

Some of the standards we had to follow would come from different organizations;

Of course, there were the various ISO systems, but many ASTM and API standards too.

Our equipment had to have Design and Material certificates reviewed and approved by third party certifying authorities.

Sometimes, a customer would require an additional review and inspection of our designs by their own agency. Such as Norsok approval for Norwegian contracts. We can compare that to the aviation certifying authorities. In the US the FAA rules; EASA in Europe, and I believe CAAC for China.

Back to the subject, I accept that today's technology is a lot better than that of 40 years ago. Unfortunately, at the time I was at school, Nord-Lock did not exist.

[PJPR01]

On 8/9/2021 at 10:07 PM, footgoose said:

One thing I don't understand is the idea of using a lock washer paired with a flat washer. It makes for a clean job, but seems to defeat the purpose.

 

I've always done this where possible to even out the pressure, as the lock washer retains tension, and the flat washer distributes the pressure in an even fashion (or if the hole is large enough that the lock washer might sit a bit sideways), realizing it's not 100% even, but probably 99.7%.  Good enough.

[Grim]

I've recently fitted a Ram phone mount to my steering head cap, I used an M8 concrete anchor, as it spreads as you tighten it. It ain't going anywhere, but as you back off the teeth retract and it's easy to remove. I used ally crush washers either side.

 

 

 

 

[p6x]

1 hour ago, PJPR01 said:

I've always done this where possible to even out the pressure, as the lock washer retains tension, and the flat washer distributes the pressure in an even fashion (or if the hole is large enough that the lock washer might sit a bit sideways), realizing it's not 100% even, but probably 99.7%.  Good enough.

 

6 minutes ago, Grim said:

I've recently fitted a Ram phone mount to my steering head cap, I used an M8 concrete anchor, as it spreads as you tighten it. It ain't going anywhere, but as you back off the teeth retract and it's easy to remove. I used ally crush washers either side.

 

 

 

 

I have ordered and partially received the fittings I am going to use.

I am going to drill two holes in the top fork clamp, tap them for M6 x 1.

I have purchased the taps, the drill, the stainless screws and the stainless spacers.

I will do a pilot hole of 3mm because I am not going to be very steady drilling the under gauge hole to tap M6 x1. 4.9mm instead of 5mm, since the hole will not be perfect.

I have a scribe and a punch and a metallic ruler in millimeter.

Once I got everything installed, I will post pics.

I have two Formotion instruments to install, clock and thermometer.

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, p6x said:

 

I have ordered and partially received the fittings I am going to use.

I am going to drill two holes in the top fork clamp, tap them for M6 x 1.

I have purchased the taps, the drill, the stainless screws and the stainless spacers.

I will do a pilot hole of 3mm because I am not going to be very steady drilling the under gauge hole to tap M6 x1. 4.9mm instead of 5mm, since the hole will not be perfect.

I have a scribe and a punch and a metallic ruler in millimeter.

Once I got everything installed, I will post pics.

I have two Formotion instruments to install, clock and thermometer.

Here's a tip if you are using a hand operated drill for the holes. Obtain a bush with the pilot hole size in it with the thickest wall you can get. I usually just make one on the lathe from a piece of aluminium. So I would drill a 3mm pilot with a 25mm long bush with a say 15mm OD with a 3mm hole through the middle. Hold the bush flat against the triple clamp surface as you drill the pilot hole and this will act as a guide. That way you will get the hole square to the face.

Ciao   

[p6x]

2 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

Here's a tip if you are using a hand operated drill for the holes. Obtain a bush with the pilot hole size in it with the thickest wall you can get. I usually just make one on the lathe from a piece of aluminium. So I would drill a 3mm pilot with a 25mm long bush with a say 15mm OD with a 3mm hole through the middle. Hold the bush flat against the triple clamp surface as you drill the pilot hole and this will act as a guide. That way you will get the hole square to the face.

Ciao   

I thought about that; to be really efficient as a guide, it should be clamped, completely immobilized.

I trust that I should be able to drill the hole perpendicular to the clamp, and concentric enough to be tapped.

Before I get to the real thing, I will do a few trials. But my pilot hole should help.