Starter motor repair

[ozstrider23]

Thanks all for your responses.

the 3M stuff looks the duck's guts. 

I'll try and find something suitable and hopefully get the bike going again. 

[docc]

Whatever you use, clean/roughen the contact surfaces? Honor the clamping and curing times/temperatures. Probably rescue that Valeo, at least until the bush pilots fly a replacement in to you . . .

My life with machines would not be the same without JBWeld . . .

[ozstrider23]

Acknowledge the prep, clamping and curing times.

I used to follow the Australian Bush Pilot's group on Facebook.  It would be great if they flew over here.  A bit out of their range though 

[docc]

10 hours ago, ozstrider23 said:

Acknowledge the prep, clamping and curing times.

I used to follow the Australian Bush Pilot's group on Facebook.  It would be great if they flew over here.  A bit out of their range though 

Whew, I had to look . . . you're, what, 800 miles across the Coral sea from Brisbane? Yeah, that must make goozee parts a little hard to come by . . .

[ozstrider23]

On 4/6/2021 at 12:20 AM, docc said:

Whew, I had to look . . . you're, what, 800 miles across the Coral sea from Brisbane? Yeah, that must make goozee parts a little hard to come by . . .

It's closer to 1200 miles.  Parts for lots of things are hard to come by Docc.  It will hopefully be easier once the borders open.  We have no active covid cases here. 

[Dan M]

On 4/4/2021 at 6:23 PM, docc said:

Beware of Step #5: "Oven Cure" to coincide when momma is away on shopping or otherwise distracted from her kitchen . . .

"What?  No, I don't smell anything"

[p6x]

As reported in another thread, two weeks ago, I got a close call while being at College Station, about 100 miles from where I live.

The starter would not crank. As I was wearing earplugs, I was unable to properly identify the nature of the issue. The dashboard lights went dim, so current was sent, but it seemed the solenoid did not engage.

I put the bike in gear, and attempted a push start, which did not yield but moved the engine. Another starter attempt worked, and I got back home.

I tested the battery with my Motobatt tester and found nothing wrong with current charge level and amps delivery. I nevertheless ordered and replaced the battery with an encased Odyssey, allegedly rated for higher temperatures than the standard one. By the way, it fits the battery emplacement of the V11.

After installing the new battery, I could reproduce the no crank starter problem. Just once. A second attempt worked, and has worked since.

But the starter noise is not what it used to be. It is different. Something needs to be done.

Replacing a 20 years old starter may seem the best course of action. It is the only part of the starting circuit that has not been looked at. The easy way would be to purchase one of the MG Cycles replacement starter at USD 120.00 + shipping. But before I do that, I am willing to try a good clean up. That maybe sufficient. Note that MG Cycles has some limited replacement parts for starters, but they are all for older models.

 

[Tinus89]

2 hours ago, p6x said:

As reported in another thread, two weeks ago, I got a close call while being at College Station, about 100 miles from where I live.

The starter would not crank. As I was wearing earplugs, I was unable to properly identify the nature of the issue. The dashboard lights went dim, so current was sent, but it seemed the solenoid did not engage.

I put the bike in gear, and attempted a push start, which did not yield but moved the engine. Another starter attempt worked, and I got back home.

I tested the battery with my Motobatt tester and found nothing wrong with current charge level and amps delivery. I nevertheless ordered and replaced the battery with an encased Odyssey, allegedly rated for higher temperatures than the standard one. By the way, it fits the battery emplacement of the V11.

After installing the new battery, I could reproduce the no crank starter problem. Just once. A second attempt worked, and has worked since.

But the starter noise is not what it used to be. It is different. Something needs to be done.

Replacing a 20 years old starter may seem the best course of action. It is the only part of the starting circuit that has not been looked at. The easy way would be to purchase one of the MG Cycles replacement starter at USD 120.00 + shipping. But before I do that, I am willing to try a good clean up. That maybe sufficient. Note that MG Cycles has some limited replacement parts for starters, but they are all for older models.

 

Dismantle the starter and look inside. I am 99% sure you will see one or more loose magnets.

I had the EXACT same symptoms. Replaced the battery, no change. Until I disassembled the starter itself and found one magnet laying loose.
Roadside assistance helped me hook up a van battery (like a huge car battery), and the dead short in my starter pulled the van battery down to 7v!!

After a few taps on the starter (which most likely relocated the magnet) she started up like nothing ever happened.

[p6x]

3 hours ago, Tinus89 said:

Dismantle the starter and look inside. I am 99% sure you will see one or more loose magnets.

I had the EXACT same symptoms. Replaced the battery, no change. Until I disassembled the starter itself and found one magnet laying loose.
Roadside assistance helped me hook up a van battery (like a huge car battery), and the dead short in my starter pulled the van battery down to 7v!!

After a few taps on the starter (which most likely relocated the magnet) she started up like nothing ever happened.

I completely concur; there was a time when fixing everything was the way to go. Assembly parts were readily available. I used to fix my cars with used parts taken from the wreck yards.

The tap on the solenoid or starter was a current remedy in the 70's. My Citroën DS 19 still had a hand crank, which I used several times when my starter or my battery would not hold their own.

[MartyNZ]

On 4/5/2021 at 10:09 AM, ozstrider23 said:

My bike is a 2001 V11 Le Mans.

Has anybody had any experience with re-gluing the magnets back into the Valeo starter motor? Specifically which adhesive to use.

I've cleaned out the assembly and the magnets, I read on a BMW forum how to place and hold the magnets but getting a  particular adhesive could be a problem.  The BMW forum didn't specify the adhesive but I'm fairly sure it would be an epoxy. 

By the way, my nearest Guzzi dealer is Tom Newell in Brisbane, Australia and, as far as I know, there is only one other Moto Guzzi here in Vanuatu, a '93 Cali.

 

See repair/overhaul advice here: http://www.largiader.com/tech/valeo/

http://bmwmotorcycletech.info/boschvaleostarter.htm

http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/valeo-starter-refresh.954653/

You could also search this site for "valeo". You are not the first guzzi owner to have have starter problems.

[audiomick]

Those links from @MartyNZ are good. I think they are the same ones that helped me some time last year when I had a prophylactic look inside my starter.

The only thing that is not quite obvious is getting the actual motor apart. If it has never been apart, there are two rivets in there holding things together. A close look reveals that they seem to be redundant, because there are also two screws holding things together.

That impression is correct. Drill them out and forget they were ever there.

The other thing to pay attention to in the guides before you start is the spring clip in this photo (from the article on advridder.com that Marty posted) that holds the brushes in. If I remember rightly, it looks like it should "just come out", but doesn't. Have a good look at it, and undo everything before you try to get it out. And practice getting the brushes out on the negative contact first. I broke out a tiny bit of plastic from the housing on the first attempt. On the negative side, that wasn't an issue, as the negative is in contact with the frame and housing and everything anyway. On the positive contact, that same little piece of missing plastic would have had me concerned about potential short circuits.

[audiomick]

An addendum to the previous post: It occurred to me that I also pondered about the solenoid a bit.

The first part of its action is to mechanically slide the drive gear forwards to engage it with the flywheel. The second part, at the end of its stroke, is to close the contact to provide electricity to activate the motor itself.

I remember wondering it that was just a contact, or a switch. It is a switch. If I remember rightly, it requires a little effort to close it. Where to push is obvious when the solenoid is apart. There is a black button at the bottom end of the housing that the solenoid moves in that closes the switch. Function can be easily verified with an Ohm meter between the relevant screw contacts on the back end.

[p6x]

Thanks @audiomick!

Most useful. I am waiting to get my Quota back before I embark in this task. I do not have a bench, nor a vice, each time I start to work on my bike I have to remove my car, not ideal conditions.

 

[audiomick]

Should you indeed discover loose magnets, the casings are available as a spare part. These three were among the first 6 or 8 hits for a search for "valeo starter motor housing". I'm sure you could find a supplier in the US.

https://www.motoren-israel.com/Shop/Engine-electrics/Starter-motor/Magnet-housing-for-Valeo-starter-4V-Boxer::148.html?language=en

https://www.bayermotor.de/en/product?info=6285&country_preselect_country=AU

https://www.euromotoelectrics.com/product-p/d6ra-magccw.htm

 

Valeo revised the starters at some point, and added clips in addition to the glue to hold the magnets in place. If yours has clips on or between the magnets, it is the newer version and wont have the problem with loose magnets.

If there are no clips in there, the problem with loose magnets may well rear its ugly head, even if that is indeed not your current problem. When you have the thing apart, it may well be worth considering upgrading the housing to the newer version with the clips, if it isn't already a new one.

 

EDIT: for what it is worth, the starter in my 2002 Le Mans has the clips in it.

On the other hand, the bike has more than 65,000 km on the clock, and the starter looked brand new inside when I opened it. Maybe it has been replaced at some point.

 

[gstallons]

I can't imagine Valeo or any other manufacturer NOT using an adhesive to bond the magnets to the case . Now , don't leave out the starter solenoid as a maintenance item . The contacts and the disc on the plunger wear as much as or more than the brushes/commutator .

 And DO not forget , never hammer on a permanent magnet starter until you are ready to throw it away !