Starter motor repair

[gstallons]

Come here where the temps are in the 90s , no wind and 125% humidity. 

[gstallons]

I looked at the MG Cycle starter . before you buy it make ABSOLUTELY sure of the country of origin . No India , Pakistan or any place like that . Yuck .....

[Randy]

As much as we chase these starter problems I seem to have traced mine down more to the slip on connector to the solenoid. Every time I have issues moving it or cleaning it clears up the problem. I'm starting to think a small bolt through there to improve the connection might be an answer.

[gstallons]

You can get a pick and bend the tang inside the connector to tighten it up and use Deoxit , connector grease or conductivity enhancer to seal the deal.

[Randy]

14 minutes ago, gstallons said:

You can get a pick and bend the tang inside the connector to tighten it up and use Deoxit , connector grease or conductivity enhancer to seal the deal.

Grrrrr....

 

[p6x]

7 hours ago, Randy said:

As much as we chase these starter problems I seem to have traced mine down more to the slip on connector to the solenoid. Every time I have issues moving it or cleaning it clears up the problem. I'm starting to think a small bolt through there to improve the connection might be an answer.

Tomorrow, I will remove the cover and take a closer look, making sure nothing is amiss on the connecting side. However, the only spade connection there, is the "pull in/hold in". The rest of the connections are held by a nut. I doubt the actual input to start is the issue.

You can hear and see the current is being drawn, it is just that the crank does not happen.

Again, it is an intermittent problem, because then it eventually works. Each time it happened, I had been riding the bike for a long time. When I am running errands at home, I have not so far experienced that problem. I am going to try to dismantle the armature, brush set from the housing, and see if there is anything obvious.

 

[gstallons]

Tell me how that works for ya . To do what you are wanting to do requires removing the rear shock accumulator , then removing the starter cover to get to the start circuit wire and then the positive cable terminal at the starter.

P.S. The pull and hold windings in the starter join at the terminal protruding from the starter solenoid. I would think about how this pull/hold circuit works to explain it but it has been in the HIGH 90s today and I've been out in it .

[Randy]

3 hours ago, p6x said:

Tomorrow, I will remove the cover and take a closer look, making sure nothing is amiss on the connecting side. However, the only spade connection there, is the "pull in/hold in". The rest of the connections are held by a nut. I doubt the actual input to start is the issue.

You can hear and see the current is being drawn, it is just that the crank does not happen.

Again, it is an intermittent problem, because then it eventually works. Each time it happened, I had been riding the bike for a long time. When I am running errands at home, I have not so far experienced that problem. I am going to try to dismantle the armature, brush set from the housing, and see if there is anything obvious.

 

The current drawn by the starter motor depends on how well that solenoid pulls in and seats the contacts. When the starter is new a poor connection at the spade connector would be less obvious. Over time the faces of the contacts burn, you get a poorer connection, and the starter motor can't get the current it needs when the spade connector has a poor connection. Clean the connection, the solenoid gets a little more current and it seats the contacts enough for the motor to start. 

I'm almost willing to bet there's been a lot of starters replaced due to this that were still perfectly fine.

[gstallons]

maybe 

[p6x]

16 hours ago, gstallons said:

Tell me how that works for ya . To do what you are wanting to do requires removing the rear shock accumulator , then removing the starter cover to get to the start circuit wire and then the positive cable terminal at the starter.

P.S. The pull and hold windings in the starter join at the terminal protruding from the starter solenoid. I would think about how this pull/hold circuit works to explain it but it has been in the HIGH 90s today and I've been out in it .

I have so far removed the rear shock absorber accumulator, the starter cover;

The inspection of the Start input spade connector is "pass". The spade is properly hooked on its male receptacle, although the connection has some play, it is fully engaged.

The direct connection to the battery is properly fastened. There is nothing that looks wrong.

I have disconnected the battery, and took it for a charge check that turned to be ok too.

Next, before I proceed to remove the starter/solenoid assembly, I am going to check the solenoid coil readings with a multimeter for both the pull-in and hold-in resistance values.

 

[p6x]

12 hours ago, Randy said:

The current drawn by the starter motor depends on how well that solenoid pulls in and seats the contacts. When the starter is new a poor connection at the spade connector would be less obvious. Over time the faces of the contacts burn, you get a poorer connection, and the starter motor can't get the current it needs when the spade connector has a poor connection. Clean the connection, the solenoid gets a little more current and it seats the contacts enough for the motor to start. 

I'm almost willing to bet there's been a lot of starters replaced due to this that were still perfectly fine.

I understand.

I am going to use some CRC cleaner, and use a fine-grained sand paper to clean the make connector.

Now, I do believe that if the start input contact was the root of the problem, it would not be intermittent like it is now.

Maybe the Solenoid "pull-in" does not fully close the circuit to the stater motor, because something is not properly working with the drive lever/clutch assembly, preventing the full movement amplitude of the plunger. This would be the most plausible explanation I have. It would also explain why it is intermittent, and why several attempts eventually get it to work. So, having the plunger cycling a few times eventually yield.

That's what I think it is.

If the Pull-in coil resistance is good, although I don't know what it should read, I am guessing a very low ohm value, then the starter comes out.

[gstallons]

I assume you have a remote starter button you can connect to the spade of the solenoid and to the batt terminal of the starter. Push the button to verify start / no start .

[p6x]

15 minutes ago, gstallons said:

I assume you have a remote starter button you can connect to the spade of the solenoid and to the batt terminal of the starter. Push the button to verify start / no start .

No have...

I have checked both the windings value of the Solenoid:

Pull-in: 0.5 ohms.

Hold-in: 0.2/0.3 ohms.

Those values make sense, and prove the Solenoid coils are fine.

I can easily make a makeshift connection from the battery to the start input and the ground to verify the Solenoid function.

I am going to go purchase some connections to make a clean test jig.

[Randy]

21 minutes ago, gstallons said:

I assume you have a remote starter button you can connect to the spade of the solenoid and to the batt terminal of the starter. Push the button to verify start / no start .

When I did my trouble shooting I did exactly that. I was considering running a larger gauge wire from the starter relay to the starter solenoid thinking this may be an issue. It worked well with the jumper. When I put the spade connector back on it also worked well. Just to make sure spinning the engine and loosening it up wasn't a factor I waited a couple of days before trying it again. Pushed the starter button and she spun over well with no issues.

[Randy]

33 minutes ago, p6x said:

Maybe the Solenoid "pull-in" does not fully close the circuit to the stater motor, because something is not properly working with the drive lever/clutch assembly, preventing the full movement amplitude of the plunger.

 

The lower the current to the solenoid the lower the pull in and contact quality. Thus less current passed through to the starter motor.