Steering Damper of Choice, and Availability?

[audiomick]

3 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

... Even companies that make something that fits the V11 Sport will often either not know it fits the V11 Sport or not care...

Yes. I've got that problem with my Breva 750. Firstly, almost anything you put on a motor vehicle needs to have an ABE. That means "Allgemeine Betriebserlaubnis", something like "General permission to use the part".

I'd very much like to put some clip-on bars on it, because I prefer a slightly "forwards" riding position. The original bars (and mine are bent, I reckon...) dictate a very upright riding position, which I don't like at all.

So, the immediate succesor to the Breva was the new V7 range. The frame is to all intents and purposes identical. Motor is the same except for a newer fuel injection system. There are bits around the triple clamps that have the same part number for both bikes. A clip-on that would fit the V7 would, with about 99.99% certainty, also fit the Breva. But the Breva was an "entry level" bike, and the V7 was a "modern retro". So there was no market for clip-ons for the Breva, so there are no certificates which include the Breva. Only the V7.

The icing on the cake: these

are an original Guzzi part. First introduced on the V7 Racer model in about 2019, and still available as an accessory (for rather a lot of money...). They are pretty much exactly what I want, and would almost cerainly fit well. But they are an homologated part for the later model, and therefore don't specifically have the appropriate certificate such that they can be bolted on to a different bike.

I haven't given up on them yet, but I need to find an "Inspection engineer" who is willing to switch his brain on and go the extra ten yards. There must be a way, but you have to find the person with the official accreditation who is willing to go to the trouble of making it possible.

EDIT: the bureaucracy does have a reason. Ok, part of it is just Germans being German, but large part of it is because there are roads here where it is legal to go as fast as the vehicle can manage. So there are good reasons for making sure that some idiot doesn't put something on his vehicle that is going to cause an accident as soon as he gives it a bit of berries. But it can be a real pain in the arse...

Edited August 14 by audiomick

[Lucky Phil]

3 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

One of the many perks of owning a V11 Sport, or most any Guzzi, is not much aftermarket support. Even companies that make something that fits the V11 Sport will often either not know it fits the V11 Sport or not care. Even when the V11 Sport was a current model bike, it did not get a lot of support. Now that it has been out of production for almost two decades it has only gotten worse. Even Guzzi themselves don't have much support for it. Side story, I just had my long standing order for a gasket set for a '93 Daytona cancelled and my money refunded because the vendor has been unable to actually get the gasket set from Moto Guzzi.

This relates to my problems with the Andreani fork cartridges they they say fit's all models 1999-2006 that have 3 different type Marzocchi forks alone. Add to that the fact that re sellers have parts and accessories on their websites they don't actually stock and have zero idea on availability of that item until they themselves put in an order with their supplier.

Phil   

[Lucky Phil]

6 hours ago, ChrisPDX said:

It's a spherical bearing.  Yes, factory mount points.

This method of attachment doesn't actually work on a V11 mount set-up. If you have 2 spherical bearings mounted one on top of each other there is going to be a dead spot in the centre of the steering range for maybe 5 degrees each side of centre as the bearings rock over. This is why I made my own solid fitting to replace the original spherical bearing on the steering head when I used an aftermarket damper mount that came with a spherical bearing in it (see image). I didn't make it because I wanted to but because I had to. The std Guzzi mount whether an Ohlins or a Bitubo does not have a spherical bearing on the damper mount for this reason. Guzzi chose to use the spherical bearing on the triple clamp fitting. They could have chosen to use the spherical bearing on the damper mount instead but they didn't but you can't use one on both. Will the damper still move? yep. Will the damper have any damping effect on each side of centre for maybe 5 degrees with the double bearing set up? nope. It's important the damper has no dead zone of influence each side of centre.

   

Edited August 14 by Lucky Phil

[docc]

2 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

This method of attachment doesn't actually work on a V11 mount set-up. If you have 2 spherical bearings mounted one on top of each other there is going to be a dead spot in the centre of the steering range for maybe 5 degrees each side of centre as the bearings rock over. This is why I made my own solid fitting to replace the original spherical bearing on the steering head when I used an aftermarket damper mount that came with a spherical bearing in it (see image). I didn't make it because I wanted to but because I had to. The std Guzzi mount whether an Ohlins or a Bitubo does not have a spherical bearing on the damper mount for this reason. Guzzi chose to use the spherical bearing on the triple clamp fitting. They could have chosen to use the spherical bearing on the damper mount instead but they didn't but you can't use one on both. Will the damper still move? yep. Will the damper have any damping effect on each side of centre for maybe 5 degrees with the double bearing set up? nope. It's important the damper has no dead zone of influence each side of centre.

   

I am really trying to get my head around this. Here are three damper set-ups. What are we looking for here? And how to spot the fault?

My Shindy with basic Heim/Rose joints (like the factory set-up?):

@ChrisPDX's HyperPro:

@Lucky Phil's Öhlins with "solid fitting":

I am not understanding where the "spherical bearing" is or if my set-up might have this issue.

Thanks for the scrutineering.    

[Lucky Phil]

Your set up and mine are fine docc. Yours is the same as the std set up and mine is also just the std setup reversed with the spherical bearing in the damper body mount and the solid fitting on the triple clamp. I debated whether or not to press out the spherical bearing on the damper mount and fit a solid bush but it was staked in so made up the new fitting instead. If the one in the centre has a spherical bearing in both the damper body point and the triple clamp point then it won't work correctly. As you turn the steering the spherical bearings mounted face to face rock over until the mount bolt or the mount faces contact before the damper will stroke. The further apart the bearings are located the worse the effect. I have a bush between the mounts and it was very noticeable when I tried to use the std spherical bearing mount on the triple clamp. This is why I machined up the solid mount. 

 

Edited August 14 by Lucky Phil

[guzzler]

I have the Hyperpro damper on mine and it's fitted same as Phil's Ohlins jobbie...

Cheers 

[GuzziMoto]

A basic test of any adjustable steering damper setup is to adjust the steering damper to full stiff and turn the handle bars back and forth. If you don't feel a small degree of easy movement right at center, that is good and if you don't have any freeplay in your steering damper you are probably good there. If there is a small amount of easy movement before the damper makes turning the steering stiff, you have an issue and need to trace out where that is coming from. Same with any lack of stiffness anywhere else in the turning range. It should be equally stiff through the full range of movement. With the steering damper on full stiff it is easier to feel for freeplay. There should be none. I also recommend you turn the damper to full soft and feel for resistance to turning. In addition to freeplay being bad in a steering damper setup, stiction or resistance to turning can also be bad. That is how the wife's original steering damper died, it would stick at whatever point it was at. Turning the bars from that point required more energy put into it then it should, but once it broke free and started moving it then took less energy to move it. That resulted in the bike wanting to weave, as every time you turned you tended to turn more then you wanted to. The less you wanted to turn the worse it was. The only way you could easily feel what it was doing was if you turned the steering damper all the way down and turned the bars back and forth. Otherwise the steering damper hid the effect.

Edited August 15 by GuzziMoto

[GuzziMoto]

14 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

This relates to my problems with the Andreani fork cartridges they they say fit's all models 1999-2006 that have 3 different type Marzocchi forks alone. Add to that the fact that re sellers have parts and accessories on their websites they don't actually stock and have zero idea on availability of that item until they themselves put in an order with their supplier.

Phil   

I would agree. Although at least with Andreani they make something that fits some V11 Sports. Sure, they don't seem to understand which ones it fits and which ones it doesn't fit, but at least they make something that fits some. 

A surprising number of things I order nowadays are direct shipped from the manufacturer, and the seller never actually sees the product.

[Lucky Phil]

9 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

I would agree. Although at least with Andreani they make something that fits some V11 Sports. Sure, they don't seem to understand which ones it fits and which ones it doesn't fit, but at least they make something that fits some. 

A surprising number of things I order nowadays are direct shipped from the manufacturer, and the seller never actually sees the product.

Yea thats why for expensive items you need to contact them and ask if they actually have it in stock before you pay. At the very least they then need to contact their supplier and check availability. It's no fun paying up front then finding out they didn't know the part is no longer available. The refund takes days and you lose out on exchange rates and charges.

If they don't bother responding it generally means they don't have the part. 

[docc]

13 hours ago, GuzziMoto said:

A basic test of any adjustable steering damper setup is to adjust the steering damper to full stiff and turn the handle bars back and forth. If you don't feel a small degree of easy movement right at center, that is good and if you don't have any freeplay in your steering damper you are probably good there. If there is a small amount of easy movement before the damper makes turning the steering stiff, you have an issue and need to trace out where that is coming from. Same with any lack of stiffness anywhere else in the turning range. It should be equally stiff through the full range of movement. With the steering damper on full stiff it is easier to feel for freeplay. There should be none. I also recommend you turn the damper to full soft and feel for resistance to turning. In addition to freeplay being bad in a steering damper setup, stiction or resistance to turning can also be bad. That is how the wife's original steering damper died, it would stick at whatever point it was at. Turning the bars from that point required more energy put into it then it should, but once it broke free and started moving it then took less energy to move it. That resulted in the bike wanting to weave, as every time you turned you tended to turn more then you wanted to. The less you wanted to turn the worse it was. The only way you could easily feel what it was doing was if you turned the steering damper all the way down and turned the bars back and forth. Otherwise the steering damper hid the effect.

This is such good procedure!  

I am happy to report mySport's Japanese Shindy passed the tests after ~68,000 miles/ fifteen years . . .

 

[guzzler]

Pretty happy with my Hyperpro damper too mate...

Been about 70,000 kays and no issues.

Cheers 

[swooshdave]

On 8/14/2024 at 3:50 PM, Lucky Phil said:

Your set up and mine are fine docc. Yours is the same as the std set up and mine is also just the std setup reversed with the spherical bearing in the damper body mount and the solid fitting on the triple clamp. I debated whether or not to press out the spherical bearing on the damper mount and fit a solid bush but it was staked in so made up the new fitting instead. If the one in the centre has a spherical bearing in both the damper body point and the triple clamp point then it won't work correctly. As you turn the steering the spherical bearings mounted face to face rock over until the mount bolt or the mount faces contact before the damper will stroke. The further apart the bearings are located the worse the effect. I have a bush between the mounts and it was very noticeable when I tried to use the std spherical bearing mount on the triple clamp. This is why I machined up the solid mount. 

 

I’m seeing zero difference between the Shindy mount and the Hyperpro mount. Each have two spherical bearings in the same location. What am I missing?

[docc]

26 minutes ago, swooshdave said:

I’m seeing zero difference between the Shindy mount and the Hyperpro mount. Each have two spherical bearings in the same location. What am I missing?

This is the best I can approach understanding this:

The secondary bearing in question is not the one at the shaft attachment to the frame (that one is tertiary). The primary bearing is in the Heim/Rose joint off the triple tree. The additional bearing in question is apparently attached to/ built into the damper body, whereas the Shindy mount has a solid clamp to the body. (I am prepared to stand corrected on this business . . .)

 

[Lucky Phil]

5 hours ago, swooshdave said:

I’m seeing zero difference between the Shindy mount and the Hyperpro mount. Each have two spherical bearings in the same location. What am I missing?

My Ohlins and doccs shindy have 2 spherical bearings. One on the shaft and one on the male rod end bolted to the lower triple clamp. The question was if the Hyperpro has an additional spherical bearing fitted in the damper BODY clamp that attaches to the lower triple clamp rod end fitting the same as my Ohlins body clamp. Therefore you have a spherical bearing in the body fitting another one on the triple clamp fitting and another on the rod end 3 in all. If the Hyperpro damper body clamp fitting does have a spherical bearing fitted then you can't use the std lower triple clamp spherical bearing set up and need to either have a solid triple clamp fitting such as the one I made up OR replace the damper body spherical mount with a solid bush.

Phil 

[audiomick]

Because I was getting brain ache trying to understand the posts here, I took the trouble to go down four flights of stairs at nearly one o'clock in the morning, pull the cover off the V11 and take a photo, go back up four flights of stairs, and take a photo of the original Bitubo damper from my V11 Le Mans. I reckon it is easier to see what Phil is getting at from the photos.

You WILL ALL be VERY GRATEFUL for these pictures, I am sure...

So here we go:

This picture shows the mounting tab on the frame on the left, no ball joint, and the mount on the triple clamp on the right, obviously a ball joint.

the next picture shows the original Bitubo damper from the Le Mans, currently lying aroung on my "desk" close to the computer. Obviously a ball joint on the end of the damper shaft, and no ball joint on the clamp around the body of the damper.

The bolt in the ball joint on the end of the shaft goes through the tab on the frame in the first photo. The bolt in the clamp around the body of the damper goes through the ball joint in the mounting on the triple clamp in the first photo.

That is how Guzzi built it, and that is, as far as I understand it, what Phil is getting at. When my Hyperpro gets here, that is how it will be mounted. I hope I don't have to get anything fabricated to do that, because the Hyperpro was expensive enough without any additional fiddle-faddle.

Edited August 16 by audiomick