MGS01 - good video

[Scud]

 

Somebody just posted this on WildGuzzi, and I thought it would be interesting here too. I didn't know the MGS01 used a 6-speed transmission "modified" from a V11. 

[gstallons]

One of the most perfect bikes ever made

[docc]

11 minutes ago, gstallons said:

One of the most perfect bikes ever made

Makes me wonder how they got 122 hp out of a 95 hp motor . . .

Seems the "modification" to the V11 6speeder gearbox was the CNC machined billet rear plate that mounts the swingarm and replaces the frame side plates of the other SpineFrames.

Also makes me wonder how the Spine is attached to the driveline on the MGS-01. More than just the very front of the engine and the very back of the gearbox?

[pete roper]

There have been endless claims for stupid HP figures for Guzzi Hi-Cams both first and second generation. Certainly the MGS had substantial lightening and friction reducing additions to the early Hi-Cam but whether these would of been sufficient to glean the boost to performance claimed I remain fairly skeptical.

The internet is also awash with claims of stupid power increases with the 2nd generation Hi-Cam. Usually coupled with a breathtaking ignorance of the laws of physics and bucketloads of 'Magical Thinking'. In this, as with so many other examples of idiocy, I part my buttocks and break wind vigorously in their general direction.

[Scud]

122 HP out of a 1225cc engine running 11.6:1 compression. That's 100HP/Liter. I find that a believable claim for a production race bike that didn't have to comply with any emission standards.

For comparison, my 1151cc Stelvio runs 11.0:1 compression and is rated at 103 HP. And it has a boat anchor of an exhaust system.

[Scud]

2 hours ago, docc said:

Seems the "modification" to the V11 6speeder gearbox was the CNC machined billet rear plate that mounts the swingarm and replaces the frame side plates of the other SpineFrames.

Also makes me wonder how the Spine is attached to the driveline on the MGS-01. More than just the very front of the engine and the very back of the gearbox?

Unsurprisingly, Harpers has the parts diagram for the MGS01 online.

Check out these two links to the frame. The frame is still a spine frame, but it's very different than the V11. There is no separate front subframe; it is welded to the main frame. It has a solid piece that mounts at the front of the transmission, like the bolt-on bracket that was not installed in so many of the red-frame bikes. And the back is totally different, where it connects to transmission rear plate you mentioned.

Frame 1 at Harpers

Frame 2 at Harpers

Transmission at Harpers

What a cool bike... is it too much to ask for a next gen Moto Guzzi LeMans or Daytona? A hot rodded version of my Stelvio motor would do just fine in a package like that.

[pete roper]

Sadly the 8V Hi-Cam is no more. Too dirty and too thirsty for starters and of course something so much fun wouldn't be countenanced by the droids at Piaggio who see Guzzi as their platform for hipsters and cranky old white men who think pushrods are a pinnacle of engineering excitement.....

[po18guy]

One in a similar state had migrated to Seattle, WA. As of last year, it was advertised for $55,000. I see that they still have it and have deeply discounted it to 50K asking. It has apparently been serviced and ridden a short distance.

https://seattleusedbikes.com/motorcycle/2004-moto-guzzi-mgs-01-corsa

[gstallons]

As far as the HP claim........ anyone can say anything .

As far as the $50k price tag ..... $49k and I would have been in . Duh  

[po18guy]

1. 122HP is certainly possible in race form.

2. 110 HP maybe  in street guise.

3. Still no idea why an 8000 RPM engine needs such an incredibly complex and clearly added-on valve train. All of that monkey motion and they could have stuck with pushrods (which they still have!) operating those 8 valves. The 8V small block was a disaster, but that seems not to be the case with the long rockers on the MGS-01.

[pete roper]

What makes you think that?

[po18guy]

Oh, probably the way my brain is (mis)wired, among other things. Bear in mind that in high school I drew an engine with solenoid valves and another solenoid-valve engine with no crankshaft. - never mind that one. Too many ideas, too little time and money. Were I born Malcolm Forbes, I might have acted on some of those ideas, but the down side is that I would also be dead now. I'm close enough as is. Primarily, I was musing, which seems to be my occupation of late. 

As to the HP, anything is possible and many figures have been claimed. Air cooling was limiting on compression, but 100HP/Liter is not an outrageous claim. The valve train is curious to my eyes. I know that it works and it is all academic now, but I wonder if they considered stealing Honda's CX idea which was more compact and allowed revs to nearly 10K. Or a raised gear-drive cam in the V or side-by-side raised cams with shorter pushrods. Without rotating the heads as Honda did, or going 90º with intakes up as some others have done, it was probably the best they could do with rather few Lira.

Primarily, I'm miffed that Morinis are not sold stateside. Now there's one that needs very little work at all.

[pete roper]

I'd have to disagree with the 'Anything is possible' supposition.

How do you get a motor to make more power? The bottom line is you either have to get more molecules into the combustion chamber or you have to excite them more once they are there. Preferably both. Unfortunately the Guzzi Hi-Cams, both old and new, have several limiting factors in their overall design and engineering that preclude the ability to get significantly greater volumetric efficiency, thermal efficiency or mechanical efficiency, (Although the 'New' hi cam and to a lesser extent the MGS01 engines do have significant changes and waste reduction strategies incorporated into the design.).

Whilst it might, conceivably, be possible to make the motor produce 120 RWHP to do so would make it very peaky and would gut it of bottom end and midrange. We've done a fair bit of experimentation on this with the Nuovo Hi Cam and the simple fact is that chasing top end is a fool's errand. The Hi-Cam is what it is. When mapped correctly and running a long pipe with a dB killer installed it will make *About* a genuine 100 RWHP. Doing all the stupid shit that people expect to work because they've been told it will by charlatans with something to flog, (Open airbox's, shitty air (Non!) filters, loud, short pipes, too much fuel etc.) may yield a handful of extra ponies up the very top but what makes the Hi-Cams so enjoyable, their incredible, flat torque curve and tractor-like ability to reel in the horizon with the twist of a throttle from any speed in any gear WILL be severely compromised. We know. We've done it. The results were disappointing and spoke for themselves.

As I always say to people who say they want their Griso to make 130 HP? Forget it and love it for what it is. Don't try and make it into something it can never be. The early Hi Cam is less mechanically efficient than the later one so you're already behind the 8 ball there. There is no 'Magic Bullet', only 'Magical Thinking'.

[GuzziMoto]

First, you have to think about how the horsepower is being measured. If you are measuring it at the rear wheel, there is likely around 15% more power at the crank. So a bike with 100 hp at the rear wheel has probably around 115 hp at the crank.

Then you have the old joke about how small Italian horses are.... As a former racer of Ducati's, I know all about inflated horsepower claims. Our Ducati racebikes would make an honest 75 hp at the rear wheel (two valve air cooled 750 twin). We raced against guys with similar motors claiming upwards of 100 hp at the rear wheel from their two valve 750's. Oddly, I don't think I ever had another 750 two valve twin motor past me on pure horsepower. I did get out motored by a guy on a Guzzi, but it was something near a 1400cc Guzzi big block. Wicked fast down the straight. Even compared to a Ducati 996 it was fast.

I do agree with Pete, focusing on horsepower is not really what Guzzi's do well. But I really enjoy the power my Daytona makes and how it makes it. It is faster than the wife's V11, but more importantly it is how it feels. It feels like a hot rod, it is raw and visceral. Much like a V11, only more so. Is the valve train a great design? Probably not. But it makes more power than the two valve Guzzi big blocks it is based on and feels like it. And it doesn't eat itself. As long as the oil pump doesn't fail before I get around to replacing it, I should be good. And I hope my Lario holds together as well, less sure about that one than the Daytona. But so far both are doing great. And both are great fun to ride.

[po18guy]

18 hours ago, pete roper said:

I'd have to disagree with the 'Anything is possible' supposition.

How do you get a motor to make more power? The bottom line is you either have to get more molecules into the combustion chamber or you have to excite them more once they are there. Preferably both. Unfortunately the Guzzi Hi-Cams, both old and new, have several limiting factors in their overall design and engineering that preclude the ability to get significantly greater volumetric efficiency, thermal efficiency or mechanical efficiency, (Although the 'New' hi cam and to a lesser extent the MGS01 engines do have significant changes and waste reduction strategies incorporated into the design.).

Whilst it might, conceivably, be possible to make the motor produce 120 RWHP to do so would make it very peaky and would gut it of bottom end and midrange. We've done a fair bit of experimentation on this with the Nuovo Hi Cam and the simple fact is that chasing top end is a fool's errand. The Hi-Cam is what it is. When mapped correctly and running a long pipe with a dB killer installed it will make *About* a genuine 100 RWHP. Doing all the stupid shit that people expect to work because they've been told it will by charlatans with something to flog, (Open airbox's, shitty air (Non!) filters, loud, short pipes, too much fuel etc.) may yield a handful of extra ponies up the very top but what makes the Hi-Cams so enjoyable, their incredible, flat torque curve and tractor-like ability to reel in the horizon with the twist of a throttle from any speed in any gear WILL be severely compromised. We know. We've done it. The results were disappointing and spoke for themselves.

As I always say to people who say they want their Griso to make 130 HP? Forget it and love it for what it is. Don't try and make it into something it can never be. The early Hi Cam is less mechanically efficient than the later one so you're already behind the 8 ball there. There is no 'Magic Bullet', only 'Magical Thinking'.

Fair enough. 122 rear wheel is not likely at all - or the motor was tuned to the edge thus making it a grenade. And, since the term bragadoccio is Italian, one can figure that it was at the crank, on a cool day, with avgas, on a slightly out of certification dyno and with refreshments from nearby Peroni. Never seen a dyno run of an MGS. For comparison (the same caveats apply) the 1187 liquid cooled Morini is rated at 140HP in street form. Can either figure be true?  Or just true conjecture.