False neutrals

[po18guy]

Was somewhat plagued with them. Very annoying and when they occurred, it was very difficult to match revs to gears. I thought to myself that one day the New detent spring and Lucky Phil extender would banish it forever (and they will). At the end of last year's riding season, the clutch had gone wonky - not fully releasing and the lever would not return fully until pumped several times. Therefore, I determined to purge air from the system. As posted elsewhere, I fitted a made-in-the-UK titanium bleeder banjo bolt at the clutch master, which is the high point of the system. RaceTi makes some superb stuff, including Brembo-specific bolts. After the bike had been parked for some time with the bars turned right to place the clutch slave physically higher, it seems that some air indeed had crept in and rose to the top. Bled the heck out of the top of the system.

A short ride demonstrated that it was still not 100% i.e. would just barely fully release, and shifts were clunky. Neutral impossible to find at a stop. Oh, drat! Therefore, I suspected a small air trap somewhere in the slave. Pulled the rear wheel to have somewhat better access (even if only visually) to the clutch slave. The slave bleeder screw had been tightened, probably at the factory, to a degree which was bad-joke tight. I suspect that someone on the assembly line had been turned down the evening before. Anyway, once open, I was able to thoroughly bleed the low end (I know - reverse order). Lever function and clutch action returned to normal after some miles - the old gal apparently needing some time to become acclimated to the maintenance. 

But, aside from normal clutch operation, I noted that the plague of false neutrals has gone away. For reasons too numerous to detail, my ankles do not have the flexibility they should and I had always attributed the false neutrals to that. However, the vaccination with fresh DOT4 fluid pushing the air out has restored the clutch's good mood. Certainly fine with me! The need for brake bleeding is obvious in a soft lever. But how to judge even a tiny amount of air in the clutch system? Indeed, the lever must go to the bar and the only 'feel" is when the clutch is engaging. Admittedly, this is purely anecdotal, but for those who are troubled with missed shifts/false neutrals, I can heartily suggest installing a bleeder up top and then bleeding both ends of the line. 

[pete roper]

An even better idea would be to do as was done on the CARC bikes and replace the impossible to get at bleed nipple on the slave cylinder with a hose to a remote bleed nipple up under the seat somewhere. It's a brilliant system. I can't for the life of me see how they overlooked it on the V11's.

[po18guy]

5 minutes ago, pete roper said:

An even better idea would be to do as was done on the CARC bikes and replace the impossible to get at bleed nipple on the slave cylinder with a hose to a remote bleed nipple up under the seat somewhere. It's a brilliant system. I can't for the life of me see how they overlooked it on the V11's.

True enough. Well, stuck as we are, this seemed the most expedient solution. But, one wonders, why have a bleeder on the slave at all? It's an all uphill system. Why not place the line in the bleeder's location and simply bleed at the master, where the air will migrate in any event? They must have a variation on the KISS principle: KICS - keep it complicated, stupid!  

[Lucky Phil]

7 minutes ago, po18guy said:

True enough. Well, stuck as we are, this seemed the most expedient solution. But, one wonders, why have a bleeder on the slave at all? It's an all uphill system. Why not place the line in the bleeder's location and simply bleed at the master, where the air will migrate in any event? They must have a variation on the KISS principle: KICS - keep it complicated, stupid!  

Umm, haven't you answered your own question with the system operation returning to normal bleeding the slave bleeder after the master bleeder.

Ciao 

[pete roper]

Because you have to get the fluid in there in the first place. Also air can be trapped in the cylinder itself so it needs to be flushed.

[Lucky Phil]

21 minutes ago, pete roper said:

An even better idea would be to do as was done on the CARC bikes and replace the impossible to get at bleed nipple on the slave cylinder with a hose to a remote bleed nipple up under the seat somewhere. It's a brilliant system. I can't for the life of me see how they overlooked it on the V11's.

That CARC bleeder mod was a 30 year get to production affair Pete. Guzzi don't rush this stuff you know, got the be thorough in the R&D

Ciao