Oil Light Stays On

[Chuck]

Quote

but if the filter has been filled with oil it still takes approx 10-15 seconds on my sport for the oil pressure to start coming up,

Hmmmm, maybe that is a clue on your oil pressure problems?

Back in the day, a kid that worked for me told me his grandfather said to "always pre fill the oil filter." I asked him about the filters that couldn't be pre filled, such as are on many airplane engines, cartridge filters, etc.

So, we did a test. Pre filled against empty on the Centauro. It made very little difference except the empty one seemed to turn the light off about a half second sooner. The point being (from memory) it was about 5 seconds..

[Weegie]

That's an interesting result Chuck, so prefilling the filter made no difference.

I don't doubt what you're saying but cannot think why a prefilled filter would not register pressure quicker than an empty filter, unless the pump is so powerful it fills the filter in negligable time.

Usually takes around 3 spins, usually around 3-4 seconds each time. This is on the starter with the plugs removed, I don't think it's radically different from the Sporti. That's after a complete drain and then refill with new oil. Starting the bike anytime after that I'll get pressure immediatley.

The HiCam pressure problem was the PRV and the (still) hot running engine. I'm getting 60psi in clear air now running a 15/50 full synthetic oil temp is 105-110C roughly, I've only glanced at the temp gauge and need to get a more definitive figure.

I could raise the pressure by going to 10/60 but that's a last resort. I want to try and install a larger cooler first to run cooler with my exisitng oil grade.

Anyway I've got thread on that whole issue so I won't drag this one OFF TOPIC, anymore.

[LowRyter]

16 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

Maybe not so much. I re-read nanochickens posts and I missed one. He said he removed the l/h valve cover and cranked twice for about 8 seconds with the plugs out and didn't see any oil flow. Hmm, not sure if this is A typical or not. Pete Roper might know from doing it before. It wouldn't totally surprise me if it took longer than this for the heads to get fed after starting let alone cranking. He did't mention if the Oil pressure light went out during this cranking with the plugs out. My Daytona engine puts the light out the second you hit the button well before the engine fires. Can't remember if the 2 valve engine was the same.

Ciao

Simply put it means no oil pressure!

Even a failed valve cover gasket will pump half a quart on you in 50 miles.  Don't ask how I know that.

[Lucky Phil]

5 hours ago, LowRyter said:

Simply put it means no oil pressure!

Even a failed valve cover gasket will pump half a quart on you in 50 miles.  Don't ask how I know that.

Yea, not so much about how much gets up there but how long it takes for the flow to start getting to the head from dead cold. Some engines take quite a while I'm led to believe but then again the older I get the more I believe. Absolutely nothing surprises me anymore. 

Ciao

[pete roper]

I certainly believe pre-filling the filter is beneficial.

If you look at the pump the volume of oil moved during each revolution of the gears is pretty small. The filter holds probably 400ml at a guess. Say that each revolution delivers 5ml and it's got to prime from the sump before it starts delivering that would mean 80 revolutions minimum to fill the filter, more actually as the crank to pump ratio is <1.

Now once the engine fires 80 revolutions will happen very quickly but even so I know with the 8V that if you install the filter empty the time it takes to fill is enough to trigger an oil pressure fault code in the dash. With the older bikes with a simple light it will take several seconds for the light to extinguish if the filter is installed dry and remember the switch actually opens at some ridiculously weedy pressure!

One of the funniest theories I heard was from some pommy 'Technician' who told a customer the reason the tappets failed on the 8V was because it took "Up to ten minutes" for oil to get to the top end! Now apart from the fact that the tappets are splash fed there is the fact that the cams, spinning at half crank speed, do so in plain bearings. Now if this rocket scientist can show me the material you can make a plain bearing out of that can run at thousands of RPM, dry, for ten minutes I'd love to see it! It must be some pretty special shit! :D.

My point is though that it's worth remembering that 90% of all wear in a motor occurs in the first few minutes before it reaches operating temperature. 90% of that wear occurs in the plain bearings in the couple of seconds before pressure comes up. One of the nice things about plain bearings, despite their mechanical inefficiency, is that once they are pressurised they shouldn't wear at all as the two surfaces never touch! Anything you can do to minimise the time they run without oil, under pressure, has to be a good thing.

One further thing to consider with the bike in question is the possibility that the big ends are shot if it hasn't got a sloppage sheet installed. It only takes a few hard launches with no pressure to lunch the big ends and if they have lost their clearance there is no way the poor thing is going to hold or build pressure.

[gstallons]

40 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

Yea, not so much about how much gets up there but how long it takes for the flow to start getting to the head from dead cold. Some engines take quite a while I'm led to believe but then again the older I get the more I believe. Absolutely nothing surprises me anymore. 

Ciao

Buddy , I know too . I rode 40 miles with a bad / leaking valve cover gasket . The incident ruined a brand new l.h. boot !

[LowRyter]

13 hours ago, gstallons said:

Buddy , I know too . I rode 40 miles with a bad / leaking valve cover gasket . The incident ruined a brand new l.h. boot !

ruined my wife's jeans too.  I didn't care about mine, they were greasy anyway. 

Actually my (left) boot looked polished.       

 

One hint:  Tightening the bolts on the road makes it worse.  There are no gaskets anywhere, even if you call a Guzzi shop.  Luckily the gasket wasn't broken.  Always carry a spare valve cover gasket if you're traveling or get good at making one.

[docc]

13 minutes ago, LowRyter said:

One hint:  Tightening the bolts on the road makes it worse.  There are no gaskets anywhere, even if you call a Guzzi shop.  Luckily the gasket wasn't broken.  Always carry a spare valve cover gasket if you're traveling or get good at making one.

Making a gasket on the road isn't impossible, but it helps to be pulling into a SpineRaid where folks are, er, "handy" . . .

[LowRyter]

On Wild there was a Norge rider going from Wash state to Maine.  He was cruising on Blue Ridge Parkway and thought his engine had blown and left an SOS on the board.  I called him and confirmed it was that stupid valve cover gasket.  He went to the autoparts store, traced a new gasket and made the rest of his trip and back.

I just keep a spare with me.

[po18guy]

4 hours ago, LowRyter said:

ruined my wife's jeans too.  I didn't care about mine, they were greasy anyway. 

Actually my (left) boot looked polished.       

 

One hint:  Tightening the bolts on the road makes it worse.  There are no gaskets anywhere, even if you call a Guzzi shop.  Luckily the gasket wasn't broken.  Always carry a spare valve cover gasket if you're traveling or get good at making one.

The oil sensor needs to be relocated to your lower legs. Odd that the gaskets are always sucked inward. Either there is excellent oil drainage (crankcase vacuum passage) or the crankcase has a hyper-scavenging system. Might explain a few of the oily airboxes and mystery leaks. Anyway, the MG cycle "good" gaskets solve the problem. I was waiting for the right side to fail, but it's valve adjustment time now, so it's all part of the deal.

Decades ago, my Yam TX650 had a similar problem, but worse as it is a 360º and crankcase pressure fluctuations are huge. There was but a single 12mm hose on the rear of the head to deal with the oil vapor. IIRC, it was routed under the engine at the swingarm pivot. I added a second hose and ran them through the top of the countershaft cover so that the vapor would condense and lube the chain. Took a 15K mile trip around the US in '78 and never had to lube or adjust the chain.

[Nihontochicken]

20 hours ago, pete roper said:

One further thing to consider with the bike in question is the possibility that the big ends are shot if it hasn't got a sloppage sheet installed. It only takes a few hard launches with no pressure to lunch the big ends and if they have lost their clearance there is no way the poor thing is going to hold or build pressure.

Since I've gotten this scooter, there have been no rocket launches or long rides up steep mountains, so, despite no Roper plate, I doubt there is damage resulting from oil shifting in the sump.  I just went by the local O'Reilly and picked up a Wix 51215 oil filter, fitting cap wrench, and strap wrench just in case to remove the apparent OEM unit.  If the currently installed filter gasket checks out okay, I'm thinking of bolting the pan back up, refilling the oil, pulling the pressure switch, and turning the engine over again just to be sure there is no oil pressure and the switch is operative before pulling the sump middle section to check the gaskets there.  Any yays or nays?  Note that as I advance in my "golden years", the following equation seems to hold true:

(Time left before check out)/(Desire to throw a wrench) = Constant  

[Lucky Phil]

7 hours ago, LowRyter said:

On Wild there was a Norge rider going from Wash state to Maine.  He was cruising on Blue Ridge Parkway and thought his engine had blown and left an SOS on the board.  I called him and confirmed it was that stupid valve cover gasket.  He went to the autoparts store, traced a new gasket and made the rest of his trip and back.

I just keep a spare with me.

If you use a Valpolini gasket you won't need to carry a spare.

Ciao

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, Nihontochicken said:

Since I've gotten this scooter, there have been no rocket launches or long rides up steep mountains, so, despite no Roper plate, I doubt there is damage resulting from oil shifting in the sump.  I just went by the local O'Reilly and picked up a Wix 51215 oil filter, fitting cap wrench, and strap wrench just in case to remove the apparent OEM unit.  If the currently installed filter gasket checks out okay, I'm thinking of bolting the pan back up, refilling the oil, pulling the pressure switch, and turning the engine over again just to be sure there is no oil pressure and the switch is operative before pulling the sump middle section to check the gaskets there.  Any yays or nays?  Note that as I advance in my "golden years", the following equation seems to hold true:

(Time left before check out)/(Desire to throw a wrench) = Constant  

Yep plugs out and crank and look for oil from the switch hole. Prefill the filter and after the pan has been off for days it may take a little while for flow to establish as the oil system "may have" drained out. 

Ciao

[docc]

6 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

If you use a Valpolini gasket you won't need to carry a spare.

Ciao

I really need to get-me some o' them. And a plan to replace my originals. Probably gonna have to have them milled off . . .

[Scud]

On 8/7/2021 at 3:01 PM, Nihontochicken said:

... long rides up steep mountains, so, despite no Roper plate, I doubt there is damage resulting from oil shifting in the sump.

If the currently installed filter gasket checks out okay, I'm thinking of bolting the pan back up, refilling the oil, pulling the pressure switch, and turning the engine over again just to be sure there is no oil pressure and the switch is operative before pulling the sump middle section to check the gaskets there. 

Any yays or nays?

Long rides up steep mountains... that's all mine wants to do.

As for the current issue. If I were in your position, I would go ahead and remove at least the filter housing assembly to inspect the O-rings. IIRC, you can do that without removing the upper sump ring, and it maybe only four bolts.

I know it's a bit more work, but since you are there, I would also remove the sump ring and check that gasket. I am biased by my prior experience, as I have seen that upper gasket fail. I think this requires removing the side stand, which is a weird little contraption.

As a Reminder, I still have that oil pressure gauge, which you can screw into the block where you will remove the sensor. IMO, that is a "cleaner" test than hoping oil will spray out of an open hole. And even if oil does spray out, you will not know your oil pressure. Your local O'Reilly store might even loan you a pressure gauge for free.

Also, I am 99% certain that I have a spare upper gasket. Are you still in Southern California? Someone at my house today is heading to Los Angeles Monday. Let me know if you want to send the gauge and gasket with him. Good to have a spare in case it gets damaged during removal.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Scud
I previously wrote "remove the oil pump" but should have written "oil filter housing"