Moto Guzzi V100 Sport Tourer: water cooled, 120 HP (26th of August 2021)

[Twin AH]

7 hours ago, VtwinStorm said:

From my cold, dead hands. They have been saying gasoline would run out since when my father was a teen...in the 1950s. Oh, it will run out, but we have a very long way to go, and the electrical grid can't take 100-300 million cars/bikes charging daily. Most of that power is from dirty coal.

You forgot the destruction and costs of rare earth metals. One of the largest mines is in...Afghanistan. Another is in...China. These are unrealized costs.

It is not about hate, but choice. It is not an ICE or E-BIKE only thing. But, they do nothing for me.

100% torque at zero RPM is a bit dull. I need noise, vibration, drama, passion. It is like reaching orgasm with no buildup, no foreplay.

I prefer to be astride a living, breathing, belching, smoking, vibrating motorcycle. Something with a manual transmission, where I can feel the gears move under my foot when I shift, not some twist-and-go nearly silent, soulless appliance.

Full disclosure, I have never rode an electric motorcycle, but I've watched enough YT reviews, and watched enough "Guzzi tunnel run" videos to know which I will select. "Guzzi tunnel run" videos are why I started taking a look at the V11 and will shortly add one to my stable of other fine European machines.

Electric bikes? Leave that to the vegans. I will eat steak and ride a Ducati/Guzzi. I wish people with electrics all the best, truly, but no thank you. Electric cars/bikes are coming, no doubt about that, but I will not hasten the death of ICE cars/bikes.

I can't freakin' wait to get a V11.

 

I couldnt possibly have said it better myself.  

[Lucky Phil]

27 minutes ago, pete roper said:

How many people wear out a motorbike nowadays?

While I too am not fond of the throw away concept the fact is that as long as the components are essentially recyclable it makes a lot of sense.

Having just given my Griso a 140,000 km freshen up I see nothing that can't be repaired. Whether it will be possible due to parts availability in 20 years time is another matter but that won't matter to me......

I agree Pete and your point is a valid one but I'm a bit of an engineering purist plus it goes deeper as well. The modern engine is a wonderful thing as long as it's a "good one" Will give many trouble free miles without any issues. The modern mass produced philosophy falls apart though over the long term and the short term if you have a serious issue. The long term may not bother you and fair enough but here's an example. My Sunday drive car is a Focus RS 2.3 Turbo 4. The engine is as is common practice these days a friction drive camshaft system, no crank or cam keys on anything as god knows that would cost and extra $10 in machining and 3 keys. The Upshot? well now you when you need to do a simple job like change the front timing cover crank seal here's the process. Release the crank pulley bolt, the cam timing is now gone. Remove the cover and replace the seal. remove all the cam drive and oil pump drive to fit new friction drive washers behind the cam drive sprocket. Remove the HP fuel pump off the exhaust cam, remove the vacuum pump off the inlet cam remove the cam cover and then the drive end and journal off the inlet cam so you can install the cam timing tool. Install the crank TDC stop. Re fit and seal the front timing cover set the cam timing and then torque up the TTY pulley bolt without disturbing the cam timing and re assemble half the freeking engine. This is what you get to save a few pennies on some keyway machining. Now the hard part, how many Ford dealership workshop drones do you think are capable of doing this task without screwing up at least 1 of the processes. Ford had a recall on this engine to replace head gaskets and when I saw what was involved I predicted a world wide total catastrophe for owners. I was proved totally correct, it's been a nightmare for just about every one of the 27,000 owners involved. Not me fortunately. This is the modern corporate engineering philosophy in practice. personally if they offered and old style build engine at a premium cost I'd be the first to opt for that if for no other reason than a dealership mechanic would have less chance of screwing up any significant maintenance when it's required.

Ciao      

[HRC_V4]

Alfa damaged the reputation of the Busso V6 with a bad head gasket, great design, individual aluminum caps on each cylinder liner to seal compression, then cheap material for oil and coolant sealing, better material and it might have been a different story.  What they did get right was maintenance, you can pull the cam shaft out without disturbing the timing belt to adjust the intake valves (bucket over shim), exhaust side was short pushrods with a rocker arm with screw and nut adjusters.  The car (GTV6) was too expensive to build and the rumor is that lead to the sale to Fiat.

Now for Italian vs German engineering, Alfa has 4 seals on the front of the engine, crank, 2x cam, distributor drive, the crank seal is one size, the other three are the same.  Wife's 944, 4 seals, crank is one size, the other three are all different by 1mm, either ID or OD, drives me crazy.

[docc]

26 minutes ago, HRC_V4 said:

  Wife's 944, 4 seals, crank is one size, the other three are all different by 1mm, either ID or OD, drives me crazy.

It is good to know why one is crazy. Worse, lots of people are crazy and no one knows why . . .

[LowRyter]

1 hour ago, docc said:

This is true of the current V7 smallblock? Is it actually also true of the V85 motor as used in the V85TT? Or do we know this, for certain, the distinctions between these current "small blocks?"

On Wild there was a lot of histrionics and folks getting the vapors over the pressed cranks on the new Guzzi small blocks.  I wasn't aware of the timing layout.  Apparently, the crank layout is typical of Aprilia architecture.  

I always thought built cranks were the exotic stuff of Porsches and Harleys XR.  Apparently not.   

Little do I know.

[docc]

1 hour ago, LowRyter said:

On Wild there was a lot of histrionics and folks getting the vapors over the pressed cranks on the new Guzzi small blocks.  I wasn't aware of the timing layout.  Apparently, the crank layout is typical of Aprilia architecture.  

I always thought built cranks were the exotic stuff of Porsches and Harleys XR.  Apparently not.   

Little do I know.

Me too.  Who knew I would be still nursing this sorry-ass, maligned 2000 Guzzi Sport after all this time. It's valve train was supposed to burn up at 24,000 miles.  What a piss-poor, sorry excuse for a Guzzi.  

Just please don't tell her.  She doesn't know about the histrionics . . . .   

 

 

[Lucky Phil]

1 hour ago, LowRyter said:

On Wild there was a lot of histrionics and folks getting the vapors over the pressed cranks on the new Guzzi small blocks.  I wasn't aware of the timing layout.  Apparently, the crank layout is typical of Aprilia architecture.  

I always thought built cranks were the exotic stuff of Porsches and Harleys XR.  Apparently not.   

Little do I know.

Aprilia scooters I think, probably with rolling element big ends.

Ciao

[pete roper]

Lots of Piaggio products use a pressed up crank Phil. My Mana has the same set up. I really never give it a moments thought.

[Lucky Phil]

51 minutes ago, pete roper said:

Lots of Piaggio products use a pressed up crank Phil. My Mana has the same set up. I really never give it a moments thought.

Really! That's surprising. How do you sleep at night Pete 

Ciao

[MartyNZ]

5 hours ago, LowRyter said:

I always thought built cranks were the exotic stuff of Porsches and Harleys XR.  Apparently not.   

Little do I know.

Built cranks were reasonably common. Norton Commando cranks are bolted 3 piece. Honda CB350 & 450 are pressed together roller cranks. Yamaha XS650 is a pressed plain bearing crank. Probably lots more that I haven't seen.

[Lucky Phil]

41 minutes ago, MartyNZ said:

Built cranks were reasonably common. Norton Commando cranks are bolted 3 piece. Honda CB350 & 450 are pressed together roller cranks. Yamaha XS650 is a pressed plain bearing crank. Probably lots more that I haven't seen.

Pressed up cranks are usually because the engine uses rolling element main or big end bearings or both so there's little choice although I think MV's may have used a split roller bearing, can't remember. The one piece slipper bearing crank is a much better design and used on virtually all performance engines these day and for many years. Rigid and along with plain/slipper bearings has no practical rev limitations.  

The Norton crank is a bad example, ridged as a piece of black pudding. So wobbly in fact you need to use barrel shaped (Superblend) roller bearings on the mains to stop them exploding. The crank flexed so much a standard roller bearing inner and outer ends would collapse under the strain of the angular displacement as the crank flexed and wobbled about.

My main point is the continual drift towards the disposable engine. I find it offensive from an engineering and philosophical perspective. Piston engine technology isn't progressing at a break neck speed anymore like electronics and software. Modern engine design is all about the corporate profit. Make it as cheap and profitable as possible and bugger the long term owner.

Ciao    

 

[pete roper]

Look, Phil, I agree, it offends me as well, but it's the way it is. Us going puce with disgust and rage over it won't change the minds of the scroll beetles at Piaggio.

one of the things that shat me off big time with the 8V big block was that they used a pressed in bearing for the front main. If you bugger your front main you're supposed to get a new crankcase!

Luckily though the actual case casting retains all the mounting bosses etc. for a replaceable bearing and the depth of the front main and journal/bearing dimensions haven't changed from earlier engines so although it will require a bit of buggering about I'm pretty sure an earlier, replaceable, front main could be fitted. Both case and bearing housing will need machining, (You need to have a gallery in the outer edge of the bearing housing to allow the oil for the under piston sprays to circumvent the bearing housing.) but as long as you get the measurements correct it's entirely doable.

It's the reason I still have my original crankcase still. Once I'm retired I'll actually get around to doing it. My bike might even end up with its original engine number back!😆😎

[VtwinStorm]

30 minutes ago, Lucky Phil said:

Pressed up cranks are usually because the engine uses rolling element main or big end bearings or both so there's little choice although I think MV's may have used a split roller bearing, can't remember. The one piece slipper bearing crank is a much better design and used on virtually all performance engines these day and for many years. Rigid and along with plain/slipper bearings has no practical rev limitations.  

The Norton crank is a bad example, ridged as a piece of black pudding. So wobbly in fact you need to use barrel shaped (Superblend) roller bearings on the mains to stop them exploding. The crank flexed so much a standard roller bearing inner and outer ends would collapse under the strain of the angular displacement as the crank flexed and wobbled about.

My main point is the continual drift towards the disposable engine. I find it offensive from an engineering and philosophical perspective. Piston engine technology isn't progressing at a break neck speed anymore like electronics and software. Modern engine design is all about the corporate profit. Make it as cheap and profitable as possible and bugger the long term owner.

Ciao    

 

This man gets it.

[LowRyter]

I guess that settles it.  

[Lucky Phil]

15 hours ago, pete roper said:

Look, Phil, I agree, it offends me as well, but it's the way it is. Us going puce with disgust and rage over it won't change the minds of the scroll beetles at Piaggio.

one of the things that shat me off big time with the 8V big block was that they used a pressed in bearing for the front main. If you bugger your front main you're supposed to get a new crankcase!

Luckily though the actual case casting retains all the mounting bosses etc. for a replaceable bearing and the depth of the front main and journal/bearing dimensions haven't changed from earlier engines so although it will require a bit of buggering about I'm pretty sure an earlier, replaceable, front main could be fitted. Both case and bearing housing will need machining, (You need to have a gallery in the outer edge of the bearing housing to allow the oil for the under piston sprays to circumvent the bearing housing.) but as long as you get the measurements correct it's entirely doable.

It's the reason I still have my original crankcase still. Once I'm retired I'll actually get around to doing it. My bike might even end up with its original engine number back!😆😎

Bloody hell I must be getting bad, Pete Roper is trying to pacify and settle me down, LOL. Yea I saw the front bearing solution in the BB from those training notes you sent me, not that impressed with that. What I loved about bevel drive Ducatis was there wasn't a single chain in the whole engine and every bearing was replaceable in the average blokes workshop with the exception of the big end which needed a press and some engineering expertise to do. I didn't like the transition to cams running in the head material either. Kawasaki 900's used plain replaceable cam bearing but that was abandoned as well. I know it's inevitable the way things are going and it's unstoppable, but rage,rage against the dying of the engineering light I say, 

You are correct in that just about anything can be saved by an engineering/ machining specialist but you know Pete those people are fading away as well. I wouldn't be at all surprised if in 20 years time they dont exist anymore.

Anyway, whats this "retirement" thing I thought you were already?

Ciao