Starters & batteries

[Pressureangle]

Backstory; Starter front bearing locked up on my '97 1100 Sport-i. It appears to be the original starter, but may not be.
I replaced it with the $100 'not-Valeo' unit from MG Cycle. It appears that the only difference between the two is the sticker- even the rivets holding the housing together are identical.
It fit perfectly, spun fast, started instantly. Never has it started so quickly and easily before, and it's been cold for over a week. Huzzah.

To dig just a bit deeper, I've had this bike for ~15,000 miles now. I've only used this new starter one time, but it's apparent that the old starter had been working hard for quite some time- even though the cranking speed never made me think that anything was going wrong. I've had a lithium battery and now Odyssey in it, and with the lithium it cranked and started easier, but the reserve crank on the lithium just wasn't good enough. With the Odyssey, I had to crank it 3-4 times to get it to fire. After the starter locked and the battery 'failed' I brought it home, checked the battery which I thought had shorted and verified that it was in fine shape. Here's the punchline- the locked starter took the fully charged Odyssey to ~5.6 volts while (attempting) to crank. The ECU if it's of standard construction won't operate below about 9.5 volts. So my wager is that this starter had been drawing too much amperage for quite a long time before it seized and gave up completely. I think I'm going to dig out my Amp gauge and measure both the new starter in situ, and the old starter on the bench for comparison; the purpose and question here is, 'is this slow, long-term failure common?'. Has anyone done an amp draw on theirs as a matter of interest in the past? 

[Pressureangle]

Today, I tested;

The old starter, when hit with the battery, actually turned- and intermittently spun, slowed, stopped, shook loose and turned again.
I performed amp draw (best I could holding the meter and screwdriver) 
I used a good automotive battery on the old starter, so it may deliver more peak amps than the bike's Odyssey. 
That said, test results peak observed amp draw;

New starter, 54a to start, ~40a turning the motor

Old starter; 80a min turning, 394a siezed. 

I did not miss the decimal point.

[Pressureangle]

Ohai,

For you guys in the Spineraid garage, the terminals I found and cleaned were not the run switch, they are the brake light switch wires. I went for a ride of about an hour and a half, and the intermittent run fail appeared right at the end of the ride, though very mildly. I'll have the tank off today to investigate all the connections and connectors as well as the relay connections and ignition switch and ECU connections.

[Lucky Phil]

11 hours ago, Pressureangle said:

Ohai,

For you guys in the Spineraid garage, the terminals I found and cleaned were not the run switch, they are the brake light switch wires. I went for a ride of about an hour and a half, and the intermittent run fail appeared right at the end of the ride, though very mildly. I'll have the tank off today to investigate all the connections and connectors as well as the relay connections and ignition switch and ECU connections.

Have you got one of these? I bought one 2 years ago, very good.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/183730457624?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-139619-5960-0&mkcid=2&itemid=183730457624&targetid=1278276341267&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9071303&poi=&campaignid=10101784991&mkgroupid=131275693908&rlsatarget=pla-1278276341267&abcId=9300367&merchantid=116301090&gclid=Cj0KCQjw18WKBhCUARIsAFiW7JzGlavIc2B-pb2Lz8lIs23seejr9ACYiUarK8n0VDVTzG8QvO4d1JAaArzYEALw_wcB

Ciao

[Pressureangle]

9 hours ago, Lucky Phil said:

Have you got one of these? I bought one 2 years ago, very good.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/183730457624?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-139619-5960-0&mkcid=2&itemid=183730457624&targetid=1278276341267&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9071303&poi=&campaignid=10101784991&mkgroupid=131275693908&rlsatarget=pla-1278276341267&abcId=9300367&merchantid=116301090&gclid=Cj0KCQjw18WKBhCUARIsAFiW7JzGlavIc2B-pb2Lz8lIs23seejr9ACYiUarK8n0VDVTzG8QvO4d1JAaArzYEALw_wcB

Ciao

Just like that, but Fluke.  It's an invaluable tool, no substitute when you need it, but I haven't used it for about 10 years before this. An absolute must for anyone working with electricity- I bought mine when working on electric forklifts. (Hi-Lo? Towmotor? Lift trucks? What do you call them there?)

[Kiwi_Roy]

Any $10 multimeter with a millivolt range can measure the starter current if you make a shunt for it.

[Pressureangle]

2 hours ago, Kiwi_Roy said:

Any $10 multimeter with a millivolt range can measure the starter current if you make a shunt for it.

Electrical engineers can afford amp probes.

[Lucky Phil]

11 hours ago, Kiwi_Roy said:

Any $10 multimeter with a millivolt range can measure the starter current if you make a shunt for it.

Yes but why bother with that when these are $50 and require zero messing about.

Ciao  

[Kiwi_Roy]

On 10/6/2021 at 5:50 PM, Lucky Phil said:

Yes but why bother with that when these are $50 and require zero messing about.

Ciao  

AC/DC clip meters are a fairly recent innovation, we have had AC ones for eons, but they won't measure DC, I haven't seen one that cheap yet.

However multimeters with a DC millivolt range have been around forever almost.

Heres how you can make a simple shunt, a #12 option will easily measure 200 Amps drawn by a Guzzi starter

https://ibb.co/3kkcX7P

If you live where cable sizes are in metric you will have to figure out the meter spacing, its very easy to do.

1, Take a length of wire, a meter or more.

2, Bare a spot near each end, these are where your meter will connect.

3, Pass a known current through the wire from each end (outside the two bare spots, measure the Millivolts

4, From the known current and millivolts you can calculate the distance between tapping points you need to get 1 millivolt per Amp

Note: If you don't have a meter with Amp range you can use a high Wattage lamp on 12 Volts to give a fairly close approximation.

e.g. 60 Watt headlight bulb     60 / 12 = 5 Amps, your meter should read 5 Millivolts.        

You must not connect your meter at the same point you connect the current you are trying to measure, the joint has a much higher resistance than the length of conductor, your meter would read too high.     

[Lucky Phil]

13 hours ago, Kiwi_Roy said:

AC/DC clip meters are a fairly recent innovation, we have had AC ones for eons, but they won't measure DC, I haven't seen one that cheap yet.

However multimeters with a DC millivolt range have been around forever almost.

Heres how you can make a simple shunt, a #12 option will easily measure 200 Amps drawn by a Guzzi starter

https://ibb.co/3kkcX7P

If you live where cable sizes are in metric you will have to figure out the meter spacing, its very easy to do.

1, Take a length of wire, a meter or more.

2, Bare a spot near each end, these are where your meter will connect.

3, Pass a known current through the wire from each end (outside the two bare spots, measure the Millivolts

4, From the known current and millivolts you can calculate the distance between tapping points you need to get 1 millivolt per Amp

Note: If you don't have a meter with Amp range you can use a high Wattage lamp on 12 Volts to give a fairly close approximation.

e.g. 60 Watt headlight bulb     60 / 12 = 5 Amps, your meter should read 5 Millivolts.        

You must not connect your meter at the same point you connect the current you are trying to measure, the joint has a much higher resistance than the length of conductor, your meter would read too high.     

You have now Roy. I like a simple lazy workshop life. 

 https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/183730457624?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-139619-5960-0&mkcid=2&itemid=183730457624&targetid=1278276341267&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9071303&poi=&campaignid=10101784991&mkgroupid=131275693908&rlsatarget=pla-1278276341267&abcId=9300367&merchantid=116301090&gclid=Cj0KCQjw18WKBhCUARIsAFiW7JzGlavIc2B-pb2Lz8lIs23seejr9ACYiUarK8n0VDVTzG8QvO4d1JAaArzYEALw_wcB

 

Ciao

[Kiwi_Roy]

I think these meters are based on a Hall Effect sensor, I will keep my eyes open for one, In the meantime I will measure my DC Amps with a shunt that cost me nothing to make, Guzzi Content.

As an apprentice we had a DC clip meter that had an analog scale, it had zero wiring but relied solely on the magnetic field around a wire and had selectable ranges by taking one movement off and substituting a movement with different sensitivity, quite expensive though.

You can increase the sensitivity of these meters by putting several turns of wire through the jaws, its a straight relationship between the number of turns and the reading.

I like electrical meters and I have a few quite rare ones.

[gstallons]

Post some pics w/descriptions please ?

[gstallons]

I have a lot of things my Dad had . amprobe , Simpson 260 , wiggie (?) , things I can't remember . I acquired one of the first simpson DVOMs 6 or 7 fluke 80 series meters ( 2 don't work & I can't bring myself to send them off ) and lots of other stuff .

[gstallons]

Oh , and I'm not sure if they work , but I have some tube testers .

[Kiwi_Roy]

On 9/25/2021 at 12:06 PM, Pressureangle said:

Backstory; Starter front bearing locked up on my '97 1100 Sport-i. It appears to be the original starter, but may not be.
I replaced it with the $100 'not-Valeo' unit from MG Cycle. It appears that the only difference between the two is the sticker- even the rivets holding the housing together are identical.
It fit perfectly, spun fast, started instantly. Never has it started so quickly and easily before, and it's been cold for over a week. Huzzah.

To dig just a bit deeper, I've had this bike for ~15,000 miles now. I've only used this new starter one time, but it's apparent that the old starter had been working hard for quite some time- even though the cranking speed never made me think that anything was going wrong. I've had a lithium battery and now Odyssey in it, and with the lithium it cranked and started easier, but the reserve crank on the lithium just wasn't good enough. With the Odyssey, I had to crank it 3-4 times to get it to fire. After the starter locked and the battery 'failed' I brought it home, checked the battery which I thought had shorted and verified that it was in fine shape. Here's the punchline- the locked starter took the fully charged Odyssey to ~5.6 volts while (attempting) to crank. The ECU if it's of standard construction won't operate below about 9.5 volts. So my wager is that this starter had been drawing too much amperage for quite a long time before it seized and gave up completely. I think I'm going to dig out my Amp gauge and measure both the new starter in situ, and the old starter on the bench for comparison; the purpose and question here is, 'is this slow, long-term failure common?'. Has anyone done an amp draw on theirs as a matter of interest in the past? 

A starter motor is almost a short circuit so if it locks up its probably pulling 250 Amps or More, I measured the starter on my VII once and found it drawing in the 150 - 170 Amp range.

Any DC motor with brushes is also a generator, as it spins its producing a Voltage in the opposite direction to the battery, this is known as Back Electromotive Force (Back EMF for short), the faster it spins the less current it draws. Of course if its not spinning the only thing the limits the current is the load resistance and the batteries internal resistance.

Its quite easy to measure the starter current all you need is a shunt made of regular wire and a cheap multimeter with a millivolt range. I'm sure there's a copy of my home made shunt sketch on here somewhere.