Urg- starting issue

[Paradiso]

Thanks.  Much appreciated.  I'm pretty sure that it is the 'weak' loom you mention.  Though I think the manufacturing date was probably 2002.  I've never been stuck, but I don't like that nagging doubt brought on by the click without engagement.   I have been through the loom few times, checking and lubricating connections, including the ignition switch and the start and cut out switches with Vaseline.  I've also checked the connections on the relay bases.

My bike's all covered up at the minute due to the British winter and the copious salt that is spread on the roads- 3 covers, battery removed and tank emptied-so it might be a while before I get it sorted, but the diagram really helped clarify what I need to do.

Regards

[gstallons]

The two terminals  (4 or 5 total) at the relay plug in , the top one is 30 and the next one is 87 .  30 has 12v on all time . You are verifying B+ before you go anywhere .

[Kiwi_Roy]

25 minutes ago, gstallons said:

The two terminals  (4 or 5 total) at the relay plug in , the top one is 30 and the next one is 87 .  30 has 12v on all time . You are verifying B+ before you go anywhere .

I always thought that was the case, my 2001 was that way but lately I have been helping an owner with an early VII Sport, his doesn't comply. It's also possible the ones sent to a different part of the world had a different loom.

I have been dealing with a Stelvio owner in Europe, he sent me a schematic that is significantly different to the ones in Nth America.

Thats why I'm trying to establish how the Start relay is wired up front. I think any with the direct wiring can be made to work without adding a relay

[gstallons]

I will have to go grab all my wiring diagrams and take a look . 

I put my "new" relay in series w/the starter wire . This way all the current operating the starter solenoid goes through the relay and NOT through the starrer "button" circuit . Pretty slick .

[LowRyter]

KR- the weather turned cold, so I'm not working in my garage now.  I'll try to assimilate your instructions at the next opportunity.  

 

Thanks for all your PMs.   I have to admit that it was a little over my head. 

[gstallons]

You will not find it if you do not look for it ......

[gstallons]

On 12/31/2021 at 4:12 PM, Kiwi_Roy said:

I always thought that was the case, my 2001 was that way but lately I have been helping an owner with an early VII Sport, his doesn't comply. It's also possible the ones sent to a different part of the world had a different loom.

I have been dealing with a Stelvio owner in Europe, he sent me a schematic that is significantly different to the ones in Nth America.

Thats why I'm trying to establish how the Start relay is wired up front. I think any with the direct wiring can be made to work without adding a relay

I hear ya ! One wiring diagram has the terminal 30 going through F5 . The other two diagrams show terminal 30 being fed through the (switched) sidestand switch . Terminal 30 doesn't have power until the (good) sidestand switch is closed . 

[mikethebike]

Hi, I’m not new to the forum but it has been many years since I have participated – I was pleased to find that my user name and password still worked. I have been suffering from “startus interruptus” for years now and I have finally got to the point where I have to fix it. Usual trouble – press the starter and the bike starts and other times just the familiar click sometimes several times in a row but it always eventually starts. There has never been any consistent pattern to the press-click problem. The bike can sit for a couple of months and fire up first press or after a 100 mile run and stop for petrol it can then click-click-click-fire. Worst occasion was getting off the ferry in Holland when it took about 10 presses of the start button and a squirt of WD40 into the starter switch and a serious talking to before it started and then it behaved for the rest of the tour. I have checked and cleaned terminals, earths etc and fitted new relays, starter solenoid, complete starter and new battery but still the problem returns. So now when I finally get round to looking to sort it out once and for all I consulted this forum and found recent threads which at last makes things clear. 

My bike is a V11 Sport which I bought new in 2002. The owner’s manual wiring diagram shows the "sensible" wiring for the starter circuit so I believed the problem did not lie here – or so I thought….

Finding Stewgnu’s colour wiring diagram has been a revelation – my bike is wired up exactly as this shows which is the “weak” circuitry.

Kiwi_Roy’s voltage test confirms this – I get 12.2V at relay contact 30 with the ignition switched on. (and 0V with ignition off)

So it looks like the additional relay in the starter circuit will be the answer but before I begin to do this work I need to clarify what I am going to do to make sure I get it right first time.

From previous threads, Kiwi_Roy’s sketch above has been translated in Stewgnu’s colour wiring diagram.

My interpretation is –

Remove the cable from existing starter relay contact 87 and insulate the cable terminal and secure it out of the way.

Make a new cable and connect existing relay contact 87 to additional relay contact 85.

Make a new cable and connect additional relay contact 86 to earth.

Make a new cable and connect additional relay contact 87 to the spade connection on the starter solenoid.

Make a new cable including a 20A fuse and connect additional relay contact 30 to the battery positive terminal or the ring terminal stud on the starter motor. Which would be best?

New cables will be heavier gauge than current wiring.

Stewgnu’s diagram shows 15A and 30A fuses – I propose to use only one 20A fuse?

New additional relay can be either 4 pin or 5 pin?

Here is my plan in diagram form ----

Comments and advice would be gratefully received.                Thanks

[docc]

I recall that @guzziart sourced this harness from Gregory Bender/ ThisOldTractor:

 

[guzziart]

FWIW....

https://www.thisoldtractor.com/for_sale_wiring_harness_ordering.html

Art

PS - If a problem exists with ign., clutch, start button switches,wiring, etc., adding a high current relay will not solve an intermittent cranking issue.  I think if I had an intermittent cranking issue I'd begin looking for weak areas ....switches!  These bikes are 20+ yeas old, things go bad from sitting or age & use.

[gstallons]

21 hours ago, mikethebike said:

Hi, I’m not new to the forum but it has been many years since I have participated – I was pleased to find that my user name and password still worked. I have been suffering from “startus interruptus” for years now and I have finally got to the point where I have to fix it. Usual trouble – press the starter and the bike starts and other times just the familiar click sometimes several times in a row but it always eventually starts. There has never been any consistent pattern to the press-click problem. The bike can sit for a couple of months and fire up first press or after a 100 mile run and stop for petrol it can then click-click-click-fire. Worst occasion was getting off the ferry in Holland when it took about 10 presses of the start button and a squirt of WD40 into the starter switch and a serious talking to before it started and then it behaved for the rest of the tour. I have checked and cleaned terminals, earths etc and fitted new relays, starter solenoid, complete starter and new battery but still the problem returns. So now when I finally get round to looking to sort it out once and for all I consulted this forum and found recent threads which at last makes things clear. 

My bike is a V11 Sport which I bought new in 2002. The owner’s manual wiring diagram shows the "sensible" wiring for the starter circuit so I believed the problem did not lie here – or so I thought….

Finding Stewgnu’s colour wiring diagram has been a revelation – my bike is wired up exactly as this shows which is the “weak” circuitry.

Kiwi_Roy’s voltage test confirms this – I get 12.2V at relay contact 30 with the ignition switched on. (and 0V with ignition off)

So it looks like the additional relay in the starter circuit will be the answer but before I begin to do this work I need to clarify what I am going to do to make sure I get it right first time.

From previous threads, Kiwi_Roy’s sketch above has been translated in Stewgnu’s colour wiring diagram.

My interpretation is –

Remove the cable from existing starter relay contact 87 and insulate the cable terminal and secure it out of the way.

Make a new cable and connect existing relay contact 87 to additional relay contact 85.

Make a new cable and connect additional relay contact 86 to earth.

Make a new cable and connect additional relay contact 87 to the spade connection on the starter solenoid.

Make a new cable including a 20A fuse and connect additional relay contact 30 to the battery positive terminal or the ring terminal stud on the starter motor. Which would be best?

New cables will be heavier gauge than current wiring.

Stewgnu’s diagram shows 15A and 30A fuses – I propose to use only one 20A fuse?

New additional relay can be either 4 pin or 5 pin?

Here is my plan in diagram form ----

Comments and advice would be gratefully received.                Thanks

That'll work ! You are removing the current from the starter switch / relay ,etc. and running it through the "new" path of the larger relay and larger gauge wiring to the starter solenoid. If you don't want to make your own , the plug & play kit looks like the way to go !

 You will be satisfied w/what you do .

 p.s. as guzziart said , this is not a cure-all . To verify this is needed , you will have to do some testing . The easiest way to see is to remove the wire that plugs on to the starter solenoid and use a test light to check for v when you attempt to start . If it lights up , plug it back up and see what happens .  Then touch the test light to the terminal . If you have a weak or no light , install the kit. 

 If there was no light at the beginning of these tests , your problem needs to be addressed starting from the beginning. 

[audiomick]

I'm poring over this once again (no, still haven't addressed the issue on my V11...) to see if the problem with the V11 is in any way related to the problem causing the same symptoms on my Breva 750 (no, not really, or at least only in very general terms...)

Reading this with the wiring diagramme in the other hand, I've come to the conclusion that insulating this wire is not necessary

 

On 7/13/2023 at 10:02 PM, mikethebike said:

Remove the cable from existing starter relay contact 87 and insulate the cable terminal and secure it out of the way.

 

Because to carry out the following step, one has to unplug the other end of the same cable from the spade terminal on the starter solenoid

On 7/13/2023 at 10:02 PM, mikethebike said:

Make a new cable and connect additional relay contact 87 to the spade connection on the starter solenoid.

So the wire is disconnected at both ends and cannot possibly be under power.

Am I right or wrong?

 

Come to think of it, assuming the wire is heavy enough, it could be used to bring the power down to the starter solenoid if the new relay can be installed close enough. Couldn't it?  :scratching-head-and-thinking-smiley